That Corbyn fella...

In what way have I given him too much credit?

He's certainly wiley and principled enough.

I presume you are not referring to the PLP? Rather the party members?
I've not seen data on that.

I voted Green at the last GE not that it was going to achieve anything.

I don't want us to leave but accept we should. I feel like he isn't really showing any leadership on this though. Current Labour tactic seems to be let the Tories implode over actively doing anything.

Current Labour tactic seems to be let the Tories implode over actively doing anything.

Any leadership he offers will limit his choices should he get in.

He still doesn't seem to have the PLP behind him so don't see how he'll be able to convince and persuade others.

Doesn't sound so principled...

Not showing leadership? Be good to hear specifics ..

I admit Labour's stance is lacking a little passion, but surely that's down to the more pragmatic stance they're holding on the issue.

They most certainly will, but they'll have to think of new ones and some of the old ones have been found out, and it rhymed.

Ease and use of being principled is inversely proportional to proximity to power squared or something something

I think for quite a while Labour haven't put a foot wrong on 'Brexit'--they've calmed the political waves, exploited Tory confusion, and have subtly moved the debate on.

I think the PLP are more supportive than you think — positive shift in gear for the GE, a manifesto that has gone down very well with the electorate and an economic plan which has been lauded by the IMF ...

It's hard to give specifics. It's maybe more of a personal response but in essence he never inspires me with confidence. There are leaders who I may disagree with but I respect ... their attributes as a leader. I'm struggling to verbalise it clearly. Examples being Nicola Sturgeon and Justin Trudeau.

one for the alias thread aicmfp

Politics isn't a personality contest.

Except when it is.

But it shouldn't be.

vote for policies, not people.

i blame america.

I'd disagree. I'd see it just like any other team scenario.

Not sure I follow .. ?

The best workers don't make the best managers kinda thing...

wut?

It's tactically sound for JC and Labour not to mention brexit. Making a big noise would not actually achieve anything now. Let the tories own their mess. Wait for the right opportunity to do the right thing, whatever that may be.

This. Which is also what @Oliver Schick said. He was right too.

If JC wasn’t much of a leader / tactician when he was elected leader (the first time) he’s learnt well already.

It MAY be strategy but...

Corbyn's past remarks on the single market and visa for barista (lel????) are most certainly going with the wind and not scoring many points among some groups.

Keir Starmer's "6 points" is also a good idea, but then he made some remarks about immigration and visa again...

So strategy or making it up as you go along? It's hard to tell sometimes.

C'est la vie, maybe it's truly the only way to turn things around as most people do not want to hear they are wrong/uninformed, even when they are.

But I am disappointed about some immigration remarks/the illusion Labour will get a custom deal. Maybe again it's part of the strategy...I just expect more principled stances not more BS. But if no BS means it harms Labour, then there's really no way out atm.

So let's hope they slowly turn around on all this.

owen smith was on question time last night. the man is a sentient toby carvery. we all dodged a bullet there.

if being reserved on the matter means more of this shit sticks to the tory shitwipes that kicked this off then that's fine by me. at this rate, they'll be unelectable for a good 20 years.

Wow. This is a really neat summary of what is wrong with politics and politicians of all hues.

The problem with referendums is that they do away with the usually unspoken idea that our leaders know better than we do what is good for us.

Welcome to the consequences.

Because the Tories caused this mess, and they totally did, doesn't mean Labour doesn't deserve criticism for "jobs for locals" attitudes. It's become pervasive and acceptable in left circles as well (aside from the true socialists and the TUC) and that's not cool in my book.

I understand it from a Real politik POV because Labour has to try to please everyone, including the "if you don't like it here..." crowd and I accept that I am just perhaps expecting too much. (green party voter here...) and that losing that voter base can make things even worse.

I am also not convinced Labour can negotiate any better deal, the EU doesn't do off the shelves. And they remain ignorant, or pretend to be, about the economic damage. I have more faith in them, but that's not difficult due to the omnishambles that is the Tories.

Ah well, reality VS expectations. I am just pissed off with the whole thing, being talked about like some "you lower wages" person while there's f-all proof bar a few studies that show with a high influx wages may lower 1%*...inflation is 2%. Wow.

But if the Tories are wiped out, I would consider that a fine bonus. Then we can see if Labour can turn things around, I most definitely like them much much more than what New Labour ended up as. Who also slagged immigrants btw, that shit started 10 years ago.

*bank of England study.

Because the Tories caused this mess, and they totally did, doesn't mean Labour doesn't deserve criticism for "jobs for locals" attitudes.

Most of those non-locals can't vote though so it's not really a winning strategy.