2012 Vuelta a España - Tour of Spain

You've got to love a pair of unrepentant dopers ripping the race apart the day after a rest day.

So you think Bertie is on the juice again Andy? You were suggesting previously that he would have to exercise caution and may not be the same rider.

As for you yesterday, Contador's ride was impressive but a great deal of it was down to tactics. I don't think he actually made any gains on Rodriguez on the final climb, he just held the gap.

A combination of Purito on a bad day, strong tactics, and the quality of Contador may be explicable, but ultimately it is hard to put a blood bag out of your thoughts.

We didn't see but apparently there were attack after attack in the early stages, which meant Katusha were struggling to hold the race together because no other team was helping in the slightest. Eventually they just got shredded which left Purito isolated.

But I agree the spectre of the two rider's past makes it hard not be suspicious. I have lost track of the number of times I have read 'well he may be doping, but at least he's eciting' in the clinic regarding Contador. It seems Sky's biggest crime is being boring. Like Pantani, if you ride uber-aggressive like Contador you are forgiven for being dirty, just as long as it is exciting

You've got to love a pair of unrepentant dopers ripping the race apart the day after a rest day.

I'm a lover not a hater...

I'm not so up on these things, but I doubt Contador would have the chutzpah to jump on the dope-train right from returning from a suspension? He'd have to be an idiot, brazen or both. I have no idea though.

I've always been a day behind this race and getting by on just the highlights, but the last few stages have been a cut above. Perhaps I shouldn't, but giving him the benefit of the doubt, I have to admire Contador's approach to racing. Never dreamt that yesterday would pan out like it did though, especially after those last few astounding mountain stages.

i think you can dope with pretty good certainty that you wont get caught. However I think he won due to tactics more than being super strong yesterday. He still defo doping IMO

Is he honest?*

The advice a rider like Contador can buy means he could be using methods we wont know about for years decades.

*Kinda the reason I'm in favour of longer bans, not the paltry 1yr he received.

What TheorySwine says. (Some) teams are always two steps ahead of the anti doping testers but I think (Millar, Dekker) Contador, Valverde and other former dopers that got convicted learned a lesson.

Lance never did.

But if you're not honest/clean then there is a huge array of ways to get a boost. The line between legal and illegal becomes blurry quickly I imagine.

i think you can dope with pretty good certainty that you wont get caught. However I think he won due to tactics more than being super strong yesterday. He still defo doping IMO

just in, from The Science of Sport:

Very interesting...some stats on power output from Vuelta, using VAM method:

Stage 14 - Puerto de Ancares (last 9 km, 8.2 %, 738 m). Joaquim Rodriguez: 25 min 48 sec, 20.93 Kph, VAM 1716 m/h, 6.09 W/kg

Stage 15: Lagos de Covadonga (Village Covadonga→next 8.0 km ,8.85 %, 708 m). Contador,Rodriguez: 25:01, 19.19 Kph, VAM 1698 m/h, 5.89 W/kg

Then Stage 16: Puerto de Pajares (last 10 km, 7.0 %, 700 m [678 m→1378 m]). Contador, Rodriguez: 27:02, 22.19 Kph, VAM 1554 m/h, 5.75 W/kg.

Obviously,we recognize that VAM on climbs is subject to issues around wind, and that once-off climbs are affected by tactics, but the numbers suggest that we're well below what we used to see (note that these are all quite short climbs, not the 40 min + of Galibier, Tormalet & Alp d'Huez), and it's not higher than this year's Tour. If anyone has SRM data to validate, let me know. These numbers courtesy @ammattipyoraily

Quite frankly, I think it is very naïve to think that Contador is now clean.

^^ That suggests nobody has blood like tomato soup this year, but doping is more subtle than in Pantini's days.

Tyler Hamilton's quote from Tinkhoff when he was riding for his team "I don't care what you guys do just don't get caught"

Brad Wiggins is clean and scores the same VAM values

huh?

Brad is Australian and therefore immune from accusations. Cobber.

^^ That suggests nobody has blood like tomato soup this year, but doping is more subtle than in Pantini's days.

agreed, there is doping and then there is doping. Modern doping is probably much more subtle

Brad Wiggins is clean.

Come on, you're a cycling fan. You should know better then to call a rider clean. Do you ever hear a pro call themselves 'clean'?

;-)

Either everyone is clean, or everyone is just slightly grubby i.e. cleaner than LA/Pantani etc so they don't post up numbers that go beyond the physiologically possible, but grubby enough to gain a slight performance advantage. Or the emphasis is on recovery.

The shame of it is we don't know. As has been said many times, drugs tests are IQ tests: you can dope happily and not get caught if you are clever. The peloton is much slower these days but just as riding fast doesn't constitute proof of doping, neither does riding slow mean you are clean.

Talking of numbers, watching Contador attack again and again and each time srub off all his speed once caught made me wonder if he was trying to make sure his numbers didn't look too fishy.

I'll go get my tin-foil hat. The lizards are coming! They rule the world already! Pat McQuaid is the Overlord, Lance is their champion

Surely if you're an unrepentant doper that still denies any wrongdoing, you need to come back on the juice so you perform as strongly as ever before. If you come back and are useless it looks like a result of having your drugs taken away and contradicts your "I've always been clean" story.

Drugs or no, I believe Contador is a once in a generation talent. Fully juiced (2009) he put out watts / kg above any other rider in history.

I think he is riding this Vuelta and last years Giro and tour pretty close to clean, and he is still a cut above.

Not much point going through it again, but people are far happier to extend the benefit of the doubt to British / Sky riders than anyone else.

The only difference being that no Sky rider has ever been convicted of a doping offence whereas Contador has.

I extend the benefit of doubt to very few people in pro cycling, and Contador, given his record and the company he keeps, is definitely not one of them.

What about David Millar?

??

OH HAI GUYZ