European Qualifier Discussion - 2013 and onwards

This whole thread is a shame, and that's an understatement.

It makes UK bike polo a joke, there are reps trying their best to work this out and then there's THIS thread which makes futile all their effort to date.

Don't like what's on your plate? Live with it. Can't live with it? Deal with it i.e. run the tourney, give it a shot if you think it's that easy.

Yes, it's the internet where people hide behind a bloody screen and speak their mind so here's my 2 cents. There's been a body set up to deal with this so let them do their job and if you have got something to say, speak to your respective rep!

beagle, while it is great that you have so much faith in the UKHBPA, this thread is actually a pretty constructive argument and is a useful reference point for the reps to deal with when we have to make decisions.

Everyone should be able to have their say whether they want to say it to their rep or not.

The point of the UKHBPA (as i see it, hopefully formalised in the next 2/3 weeks) is to help UK bike polo grow by becoming steadily more organised and united. As a centralised grouping, the whole point of giving it the ability to make decisions is to get things done more efficiently (i know, i know, its early days yet...) and simultaneously represent more views as bike polo grows exponentially, instead of the views of a few 'organisers' (however well intentioned their efforts are). The point is absolutely not to impose ideas on the community, more to enable the community's ideas to get enacted and to involve more people in the process.

This is an important distinction and is why chat like the last few pages is a good thing, definitely doesnt make the reps efforts futile and will hopefully continue.

Yeah, a thread full of ideas is never a shame, I don't think the UKHBPA wants to become some overbearing control thing telling everyone what to do from on high, the whole point is to funnel everyones opinions through less people from all around the UK to try and get things done better and with input from all over.

I have nothing against anyone making their thoughts known but this is a public forum. LPC? PM? Email? So we put up a show for others to mock how screwed we are? Nice...

The whole UK ain't a part of the LPC, besides, we ain't screwed, seems like a pretty reasoned discussion of a problem that needs working on.

^ Selective reading fail?

... PM? Email? ...

Relax beagle, it's just a discussion.

I've now moved this into a separate thread, as it's really nothing to do with this years qualifier.

interesting discussion, we had similar problems this year for the euro qualies, and in the end the decision was made by an elected comitee, set up earlier in the year:
16 teams were allowed to compete in a pre-qualif tourney in Lyon. They were "chosen" on the basis of past results, as individuals or as teams. I think no solid team was left behind by this system. Once in Lyon, we played round robin games over two days, and the top 8 qualified for.....
the actual qualies, in Rouen a month or so later.
There they met 5 pre-selected teams (Hooks, Call Me Daddy, Cocorico, Ma Couille, and Shaft Punk) and a "host spot" team from rouen (Goldmember). With these 14 teams we played round robin games over two days to choose the 8 euro slots, and 2 (or 3?) wild card slots. It made for a pretty intense tourney as the level was mostly equal and the stakes were high. Quite a lot of injuries in the end! I think the system worked, maybe shaft punk didn't really deserve an automatic spot, but beyond that it seemed like a pretty solid way to choose our Euro slots.

And after that, without the pressure, we're having a 48 teams French champs tourney in early July.

I have to agree the French system was great, and in my mind the best way of dealing with the large number of teams who want limited spots, if it's not the UK Champs.

This thread is not a shame. It's a constructive, open discussion to try and improve our qualification process.

I think that from this thread, it is becoming clear (for me) that we need to host the UK champs earlier in the season (April or May) and use that to seed entry to the euros.

Without this thread and everything being kept behind closed doors we couldn't have input from the ambassador.

+1 Pique. It's middle class and/or weird to think that differing opinions is a bad thing, or that ideas/problems being ironed out is embarrassing.

Keep ironing!

+1 Pique. It's middle class and/or weird to think that differing opinions is a bad thing, or that ideas/problems being ironed out is embarrassing.!

Excuse me, we are not home to Mr. (or is this case Ms.) Marxist Dialectic.

If Cosmic has a sub then what is PK on about?

There is a pretty strong argument for letting the winners of the London league get an automatic spot for the UK -- namely, that they will be in the top 7 for sure. I think the UKHBPA could make that decision.

Whatever Mr Anarchist Consensus.

I was very confused to find I'd started a new thread, I must have been more drunk than I thought last night! :)

Anyway enough discussion of whether discussion is a good thing (I'm with most in that I think it is good)...

Pk I've got to disagree with you about the uk champs being the best way of selecting the teams for the euro's.

It's a lovely romantic idea that uk/uki > euros > worlds, but the simple fact is the uk champs are a competition to find the best team in the uk, not rank teams in order. An unlucky team could face the two best teams in the knock out round and so not even make top 16, but they could still be the third best team. That is an extreme example, but on the borders between getting a place / wildcard / not getting a place, knock out is not a satisfactory way of choosing. That's why every uk qualifer has been round robin.

Romanticism will probably win out over logic, but it needs to be said.

Whatever Mr Anarchist Consensus.

Textbook trotskyite fillibustering.

knock out is not a satisfactory way of choosing.

In your opinion. In my view, seeing as the tournament itself is a knock-out, then the teams we want to send should excell at knock-out, rather than round-robin.

this thread is not a shame. It's a constructive, open discussion to try and improve our qualification process.

I think that from this thread, it is becoming clear (for me) that we need to host the uk champs earlier in the season (april or may) and use that to seed entry to the euros.

Without this thread and everything being kept behind closed doors we couldn't have input from the ambassador.

+1000

I think round robin is the best way to select teams for Euro qualies.

Hooks, arguably the best team in france, got beaten by Call Me daddy (or cocorico can't remember) in our round robin tourney, then almost beaten again by Les Chacals (a bit of trumpet-blowing here - sorry). We drew them in the end, but had we beaten them, and had this been a double elim, in the early stages, it would have meant that Hooks wouldn't have made the cut??? Absurd.

The counter-point though... the worlds qualies in europe are made during the euros, in a double elim.... so..

The Ambassador - arguing (and winning) both sides of the argument.

In your opinion. In my view, seeing as the tournament itself is a knock-out, then the teams we want to send should excell at knock-out, rather than round-robin.

I think round robin is the best way to select teams for Euro qualies.

Hooks, arguably the best team in france, got beaten by Call Me daddy (or cocorico can't remember) in our round robin tourney, then almost beaten again by Les Chacals (a bit of trumpet-blowing here - sorry). We drew them in the end, but had we beaten them, and had this been a double elim, in the early stages, it would have meant that Hooks wouldn't have made the cut??? Absurd.

The counter-point though... the worlds qualies in europe are made during the euros, in a double elim.... so..

Ideally, the qualies should mimic the tourney, so swiss then elim. It's sort of important to get a good seeding for the elim; a good seeding will help you avoid some of the stronger teams in the early stages.

The same way the football qualifiers mimic the main tournaments?

Sets a precedent for future years though and doesn't seem right to give the winners of 1 places league a spot over the rest of the UK that isn't included in that league, despite the fact they would almost certainly qualify anyway.
I'm going to set up a Manchester league and get a spot for myself ;)

In your opinion. In my view, seeing as the tournament itself is a knock-out, then the teams we want to send should excell at knock-out, rather than round-robin.

This is a good point I like it, how well a team copes with pressure and all that.

Assuming of course that the seeding is correct (people can game seeding by losing games on purpose, it can have an advantage).

And of course remembering that you are going to be putting a dividing line between teams that will have won and lost the same number of games. Possibbly against totally different teams.

If you rate people relative to who they played it's with pointing out that someone knocked out in the group stage could score higher than some who qualifed. (for an example of this look at the NS points for Yomoyo and compare to the points system James is trialling)

If Cosmic has a sub then what is PK on about?

There is a pretty strong argument for letting the winners of the London league get an automatic spot for the UK -- namely, that they will be in the top 7 for sure. I think the UKHBPA could make that decision.

You might as well list teams that don't need to qualify, why use the justification of the London league when it's not the reasoning?

I'd say spring break and nice touch are dead Certs too. If only there was some competition where these three teams showed them selves to be above the rest of the country and not just a London league which refused to allow out of towners to enter teams... Hmmm.