Moderators (requests and notices)

Humor or not humour is not the point of the trial, among being subjective, cultural etc.

As previously requested, please remove this comment. It is not positive to the message in that thread.

Seconded. Failing removal of the comment, @ABCNews please remove yourself from the forum.

@Velocio
Context is all, it would be borderline misogyny in most of the forum, but the fact it's in the ladies forum should count for more (not to mention the history of that thread...). He should be banned from there at least. (Also +1 for getting a report button back?)...

Does @clefty still have powers in that sub forum?

Spammer

https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/2586­72

Not bothered by that. Mostly because:

1. cosplay professional riders quote is awesome
   
2. Everyone has undermined the sales pitch by showing it can be done cheaper and better, with friends
   

Ladies will come, go as they please. You can't control that.

Actually we can, considering we (especially you) made it into a less inviting places for the others.

Does @clefty still have powers in that sub forum?

Yes, and she could have deleted the posts.

When it reaches this thread, and myself or hippy. Basically we're only talking about whether we're going to ban.

We have obvious trip-wires that will cause a ban: spam, eBay adverts, obvious trolling, threats of violence, posting porn or snuff stuff, obviously illegal stuff, and so on.

But... short of those things, it's all subjective.

I've made it abundantly clear over and over, I won't stray into moderating the subjective without there being clear guidance from the wider community about how to handle that subjective stuff.

Even then... I don't treat precedence of subjective moderation as carved in stone. I re-visit it, to ensure it's still what the community wants.

I know that ABCNews's posts are misogynistic and offensive, but were they intended, were they foolishly posted by someone for whom English isn't a first language, did they naively repeat a sensibility they've learned from mass media without understanding what they were saying? Could they be educated? Could they be set straight? Would they recognise that their behaviour does appear to be misogynistic/sexist? Would they value their place in the community, understand how their behaviour affects others in the community, and desire to do better by others in the community?

Failing all of that, if it's obvious he's a troll (which does seem fairly likely), then sure... I'll ban.

But all subjective stuff... well, I cannot believe the low wit, dumb arguments, pitch fork mentality most on here are displaying. Come on, I know it takes time and effort, but it's not hard to hold someone to account.

Given that I now think ABCNews is a troll (from his posts in this thread in the last 2 pages where he clearly doesn't care about the opinion of anyone else), I'll still give him a little longer to prove me wrong or be banned.

But people should note: The pitch fork mob won't have achieved that. Yurikin would have by challenging calmly, and was assisted by ABCNews by shifting himself firmly into troll territory.

There are ways to get people banned, but hounding me isn't it. I was quite tempted to treat some of those wielding pitch forks as trolling me.

Seppuku with a pitckfork is difficult.

Can we have tags back?

The pitch fork mob won't have achieved that. Yurikin would have by challenging calmly, and was assisted by ABCNews by shifting himself firmly into troll territory.

I think that's unfair. You made the point, a couple of times, that instead of complaining to you we should address the troll directly so they have a chance to apologise / change their behaviour, and the forum can self-moderate. That's what Yurikin was doing. If ABC stays quiet, or stops trolling, surely this is the outcome we all wanted? We may come across as a pitchfork mob, but the point has been clearly made to ABC that we find him boring and he has no support here.

but the point has been clearly made to ABC that we find him boring and he has no support here.

Who here doesn't find someone boring on here?

That's a terrible criteria for demanding a ban. In raising it in here, that's what is being asked of me as it's the only reason to involve me.

Get better criteria, build a better case.

I'm never going to ban someone because from your extremely subjective point of view, someone bores you. Even if you multiply your to include the entire forum population, someone boring everyone (which you probably could never verify) still isn't a reason to ban... it's a reason for those who are bored to put the someone on ignore.

Has the forum slid so much that this is honestly the best case that can be made?

Have all my pleas for a solid reason to ban someone really fallen on deaf ears?

If people want me to act, show me the basis on which to act. That includes showing me reasoned and calm attempts to integrate the someone in question, to get them to understand what has caused issue and how to correct it.

When given such clear information, I act very swiftly.

Ah, yes. "Speaking as it is". That last, desperate stance of the bigot. We're lucky we have you, matey. What will be your next trick? Heading into your local WI to tell the ladies there to stop having all those boring meetings and parade for you in suspenders instead? Visiting a Women In STEM conference to let them all know that you prefer them in the kitchen?

And you get to have a conversation with me now, ducky! Lap it up, love.

Ok, firstly. I'm sorry for the paucity of my intellectual arguments, and based on your limited feedback I'll endeavour to do better.

Secondly, the probable reason that the mods in the ladies forum haven't dealt with this, is simply because they're not around much. They can generally trust the entire forum to not use the ladies forum as a place for casual sexism, so don't feel the need to be here quite so much as they would if it were more hostile.

Thirdly, the fact that this discussion is happening in here is something you're taking very personally, and I'd like to apologise for making you feel that way (this is a genuine apology, rather than the slightly passive-aggressive one in point the first). The reason (IMO) the discussion is happening here has less to do with you than it does with the fact that the ladies subforum really isn't the place for this kind of chat. It's a positive, safe space for women, and something like this will cause an avalanche of negativity in it that will leave all the women feeling a bit soiled and exhausted. I don't know how many of you read the ladies forum regularly, but of those who do, you may have noticed that there aren't ever any arguments in there - no fights, no pissing contests, no rows. The only time I can think of when there was an argument in there was when that moron tommy waded in, and even then there were ladies pleading "can we please not fight in here?" That's deliberate. It's not because ladies in general want to avoid arguments at all costs - you only need to look at me or hats to disabuse you of that idea - it's because we choose our words in there very carefully in order to avoid conflict so that the space is positive and supportive at all times.

To have the argument in there changes this safe space into a space with a chilling effect for people who don't want to fight these attitudes all the time. That's basically the entire internet! There's one place where it doesn't need to be that way, and now our mate here has cocked it up. The alternative, to not have the argument in there, means that the safe space has changed into a space (for women!) where casual sexism goes unchallenged. Both of those options are terrible.

VB, that's why this discussion is happening in this thread, and I don't want you to think that it's happening in here because we're all thinking "that VB! He's such a complicit dickhead and a monster". I'd be very surprised if anybody was thinking that, though I admit I'm constantly surprised at the stuff that goes on in other people's heads. Anyway, so you don't want this discussion happening here, which I understand. It feels like an attack on your diplomatic skills. It's not intended to be. Do you, in turn, see why I'm not hugely keen on this discussion happening in the "super cool women doing neat things on bikes" thread? Please don't take the location of this personally. It's not about you, it's about bro above.

the fact that this discussion is happening in here is something you're taking very personally

Nope. Not at all.

I take the role of admin seriously, as a major responsibility, as a sign of trust in me to do the right thing.

It probably is the case that banning ABCNews is the right thing. But doing the right thing for the wrong reason, would make it the wrong thing.

I hold myself to high standards, and I believe that we are all prone to make mistakes. Given that there is no system that can hold me to account, I hold myself to account by requiring that I only do things on here when I have a clear authority to do so.

For most things, that's easy enough... none of you want spammers here, trolls get banned when they're too much, etc.

But when it's not obvious, I will fight to get out of people clear authority for me to ban someone.

Not the view of one or two people, not an extreme response to an otherwise petty incident. But real evidence that something is wrong, and that the only corrective that should be applied is me banning someone.

Frankly, I'm surprised that my holding myself to high standards is an issue, also that the reason I do so isn't really obvious. I'm surprised that given how I've moderated for years that it isn't pretty clear what steps people need to go through to ensure someone who is posting things that don't meet the (subjective) community standards is then banned.

The end, does not justify the means.

Frankly, I'm surprised that my holding myself to high standards is an issue, also that the reason I do so isn't really obvious.

It's not an issue. It's more that it looks like you're getting upset at being dragged into this unduly.

Also the blurring of "how to report" is probably due to the way "how to report" has completely changed because UI.

Also the blurring of "how to report" is probably due to the way "how to report" has completely changed because UI.

That's probably true.

But even with a "flag" button... my actions wouldn't have changed. You'd just think I was ignoring the reports or that no-one else had reported it.

This thread is a good example of the nerg button doing good work. His initial comment was a sexist joke as far as I can remember.

This is true - your actions would have remained the same, but ours are (necessarily) different. The only way we can report now is by having it out in public... which is what we're doing. What's making it very different now is that ABCNews can see the reports and be all "oh what? But I'm just calling a spade a spade, you all need to get a grip, blah blah" which then leads to further aggravation from the people who already reported him, which then leads to you feeling that you need to defend yourself and your actions, which leads to... etc.

None of this is that surprising, if you consider it as a logical chain of actions. Obviously it's surprising in the context of the past, but... y'know, things were different then, so it's different now, and we're all still getting used to that (even you!).

Most reports that presently result in swift action are via PM, to myself.

This keeps them private, and ensures I am notified (one PM per report = new notification).

Promote @bothwell and @hats for Ladies Forum moderator (if they want of course).

If we reword his comment to this;

Sorry but I prefer black people off the bike. Just sitting there looking dodgy.

Then it would have been dealt with straight away.

I agree with all this here.

I posted the link here in this thread, knowing it is well read by many.
The outcome I was hoping for was everyone talks it out and the post gets deleted. At no point did I ask for a banning/burning at the stake.

I am happy to talk gender politics all day long, however I am not happy to carry this out in the ladies subforum due to the atmosphere created in such discussions. Nor am I entering into conversations with trolls, anywhere.
I apologise to @Velocio if it was taken that I just wanted abc banned, I can see how lack of explaining could lead to that. I presumed, wrongly, that no further explanation was required.
However, I do still feel this post in question is inappropriate and negative to the outcomes of the thread it is in and should be deleted or moved, regardless of whether the author wishes it or not.

If there was a report button I would have probably reported his ladies forum post, if it was elsewhere on the forum I would have told him to fuck off (I think I did), I didn't tell him to fuck off in the ladies forum as I tend to not go in there and I don't think my sole contribution to it should be running around shouting at pricks being sexist and figured as the post had been brought up in here (the only reason I knew about it) it'd probably get nuked before too long anyway.

Done.

@bothwell and @hats you are both mods on LFGSS Ladies.

You can edit posts, delete posts, close/open threads, etc.

General advice: Don't do any of these things. All powers are to be used in exceptional circumstances.

You can also ban, go to the "Who is allowed to access this forum" page, and you'll see a banned group at the bottom. If you edit that group and add someone, they will be banned and the forum will disappear for them.

Do not edit any other permissions (or else!)

Gosh, it's almost an honour. Thanks.
(can I ban Ed from the ladies forum?)

Where did the ladies forum go?