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I very much agree with this.

Hell, the cooker I have at home came from a cookery show pilot episode, and after they stripped the set down the manufacturer were uninterested as it was now soiled product. So that was free to anyone who could remove it from set (me, in that case).

So I'm well aware it's probably perfectly legit and such things happen. Especially in the "photograph this, oh and keep it as it's now soiled and out of packaging and we won't be selling it" space.

I'm also aware that LFGSS as a market place is a wild west with little in the way of real accountability. And that's fine, but it does mean there is a higher risk here and we'd all kick ourselves if we knew we were buying and selling anything dodgy.

And that's the dilemma... start calling it when it looks too good to be true or not? There's no doubt that Hunterlar could've got better prices on eBay, and coupled with the amount of stuff being sold does raise enough suspicions that then people start emailing or PMing me asking if I know Hunterlar and whether the items are legit.

I don't know Hunterlar, the items may be legit. But ultimately, best to just ask than not.

There's a rather unfortunate typo in the thread title here:

https://www.lfgss.com/thread116273.html

I have to admit that I'd prefer if it stayed this way, but if it did it would probably be merged into the Foffa thread.

I'd say that's rather fortunate spelling and probably not a typo at all...

Update on Hunterlar's Rapha items here: https://www.lfgss.com/thread116236.html#post3902326

^^
^
It wasn't a typo but a judgment in the thread title.
Can it be changed back?

#scrappedonbymods :)

Hunterlar must have raked in a fortune from the sales already, how are you going to prevent him posting stuff that has been paid for but is awaiting postage?

Myself, I'm a little dubious about his claims of ignorance as t the origins of the stuff, a convenient escape.

This doesn't apply to me but, where do people who've bought any of these items stand?
Are they handling stolen goods?
(ignorance is no defence)

Does Rapha want them back?

Hunterlar must have raked in a fortune from the sales already, how are you going to prevent him posting stuff that has been paid for but is awaiting postage?

The vast majority of cyclists are so dead set against bike theft and thievery in general, that I'm relying on his customers not wanting to be complicit in theft and the handling of stolen goods within the cycling community.

That is, I'm relying on those who started transactions to grass him up based on the strength of feeling that pervades the cycling community about those touching stolen goods. Hell, we collectively forgive anything, except theft of bike stuff.

I think it's a pretty good bet actually. The anger about stolen bike stuff is such that even if he ships 2 items I'm fairly sure 1 of those will grass him up.

And if you were Hunterlar, knowing this... would you risk the severity of reaction from the police getting involved given that we have proof of the sales, as well as proof of the provenance of more than half of the items.

It would be very very unlikely for Hunterlar to come out of that without a criminal record.

So that equation: Risk selling the last items to keep the odd £50 or so, when the very real chance of a visit from the police and a criminal record is so high? Hell, you'd have to be really stupid to do that.

And compare that to what Hunterlar could do. Which is act with honour, refund money for any items not shipped, and apologise to those for passing on stolen goods, and returning the last items back to Rapha.

He could gain a great deal of respect for handling it with grace.

Those are two possible outcomes, and which he chooses would speak volumes about whether he truly knew the provenance of the items that were sold.

This doesn't apply to me but, where do people who've bought any of these items stand?
Are they handling stolen goods?
(ignorance is no defence)

Does Rapha want them back?

Those people are handling stolen goods. The status of ownership hasn't changed by the items being passed on several times.

Technically they're in the wrong, and it would be up to Rapha to determine what they wanted to do. I cannot speak for Rapha in any way, but I know that if I were them I'd probably let those few people keep the items for personal usage only, and in return for a little goodwill to help prevent this happening again.

My experience of humanity has taught me, on countless occasions, people are stupid.

Guess we'll see.

There are so many current and past Rapha employees/associates on the forum it's a bit of a daft place to push gear clearly obtained via HQ.

Those people are handling stolen goods. The status of ownership hasn't changed by the items being passed on several times.

Just reading around this, and trying to work out where the Law stands on ownership - would it be up to Rapha to prove that the items were stolen, or the employee to prove that they were acquired legitimately?

(obviously things like the lapelled jacket are one-offs, so easy[?] to document, but things like socks?)

In criminal law, the burden of proof lies with the Crown, so the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the goods are stolen.

In a civil action for recovery, the claimant (Rapha) would have to prove on the balance of probabilities that they owned the goods and were due some compensation for their loss.

It's best to give Hunterlar the benefit of the doubt. His response will be eagerly read.

I can see he's currently in this thread...

I am in the process of sorting this out with Velocio, my contact and Rapha. I believe this is just a misunderstanding.

Just for info - there seems to be a lot of mention of 'Theft', 'Handling Stolen Goods' and Police type stuff. I would suggest that without knowing the full story the comments are not helpful. The whole Police aspect is based on ownership of the items and from what I gather from the posts, that is not clear. The Police cannot act without having an owner to make an allegation.

That does not preclude Rapha attempting to recover items via the civil courts - how that would be done, would be very interesting and although Rapha kit is expensive, solicitors fees would dwarf the cost of the kit.

Just reading around this, and trying to work out where the Law stands on ownership - would it be up to Rapha to prove that the items were stolen, or the employee to prove that they were acquired legitimately?

(obviously things like the lapelled jacket are one-offs, so easy[?] to document, but things like socks?)

For the items such as the uniform and any that were never available for sale, then unless the has some proof that they were granted ownership by Rapha, then Rapha still own the items. That proof is easy for Rapha to obtain.

As for the items available for public sale. No proof can be made in that case. Rapha are unlikely to be able to do anything regarding those.

But in that case, I'd ask buyers to question their conscience. There are a lot of stolen bike parts out there, and if you acquired an item at a bargain price from someone who was found to be passing on other items that were in question, then you'd probably reach your own conclusion about all of the items.

It's weird that a whole batch comes forward at once, including uniform gear and rare stuff, and yet we as people in this community are supposed to assume that just because more than half is in question that the remaining things are fine. The law may not prove anything on those items, but this community has always looked out for each other and who here wants to be supporting someone who is passing on goods that they had no right to have?

I remain certain that Rapha are not going to go after people buying items, and nor will I, but clearly we don't want to support the trade of items whose provenance is in question.

Just for info - there seems to be a lot of mention of 'Theft', 'Handling Stolen Goods' and Police type stuff. I would suggest that without knowing the full story the comments are not helpful. The whole Police aspect is based on ownership of the items and from what I gather from the posts, that is not clear. The Police cannot act without having an owner to make an allegation.

That does not preclude Rapha attempting to recover items via the civil courts - how that would be done, would be very interesting and although Rapha kit is expensive, solicitors fees would dwarf the cost of the kit.

On some of the items it is very clear that the had no right to them.

On some more of the items, I am not party to any employment contracts that would clarify the status but I am assured that there is an understanding (I don't know whether that is written or not) that items supplied as uniform is for personal use only.

On the remaining items, it is plausible that they are legitimate still.

The fact that there are any items that it is beyond doubt about (and there are some) is worrying. And as it's clear that some items certainly do belong to Rapha still, then what other phrase would you use to describe the fact that someone has passed them on to a third party, who is then selling them? That is the essence of the phrase "passing on or handling stolen goods".

I'm very willing to remain in the world of plausible deniability and repeat that Hunterlar really did believe he acquired the items legitimately. But now it's extremely clear that the provenance of some items is not as he believed, he has to act accordingly.

And, if he now continues to sell items whose provenance is in doubt, then that is a really dumb thing for him to do.

Why the back and forth... I've no idea. At this point it's pretty clear. So let me repeat it:

Rapha have confirmed that some items never left their ownership.
Rapha have confirmed that uniforms were for personal use only.
Rapha have confirmed that "over half" of the items sold (or being sold) remain their property.

Couch the phrasing however you like, but I really will not have such items sold on the site. And I've given benefit of doubt to Hunterlar but if he continues to push me on it, then I will be the one that gathers all of the evidence together and will go to the police.

There's no way in hell I'm going to allow stolen property to be sold on this site with my knowledge, and in the age of doing everything digitally it's not like there isn't a wealth of factual evidence on this site as this is where Hunterlar's transactions were conducted.

Hunterlar needs to halt all activity, and seriously consider returning the named items in the post to Rapha if those are still in his possession.

Otherwise, a shit-storm really will be unleashed. I only have control over this site, but this is where Hunterlar conducted his transactions. I have nothing to do with the or Rapha, and if Rapha choose to take any action or pursue it any way then it would be up to them alone. I would support anything they chose to do.

That does not preclude Rapha attempting to recover items via the civil courts - how that would be done, would be very interesting and although Rapha kit is expensive, solicitors fees would dwarf the cost of the kit.

If it's a small amount of kit (less than a few grand's worth), a Small Claim would suffice, at a cost of a few tens of pounds. I've been through that (as a plaintiff) and it's cheap, simple and friendly, although getting a judgement doesn't actually help in recovering your money. However, in most cases of this kind, a "letter before action" is sufficient to bring the other party to his senses, and that can be written by anybody without recourse to formal legal advice. I'm sure a company as big as Rapha has the competence in house but there is plenty of advice on construction for the rest of us on the internets.

Glad the Hunterlar issue has kind of been resolved. Naughty staff member.

What if HLar makes a donation? Is it right to accept it, assuming it's from the proceeds of a crime?

What if HLar makes a donation? Is it right to accept it, assuming it's from the proceeds of a crime?

Hunterlar has made a donation, £10 yesterday. If the final resolution (Rapha and the are talking, apparently) is that the items were dodgy I'm fine refunding it.

Actually I'm always fine refunding donations, so it's not like there's much difference here.

Could you refund mine so I can buy a sweeeet Rapha cycling waistcoat?

Would someone mind moving this thread from components and misc to frames 'n bikes within Classifieds?

Thanks in advance.

Done