65th Aniversary of the RAF's raid on Dresden

:-I

Go on..smile :-)

It's for those based in the North West so far, it's already nearly double the size of last year's outing. My Grandpa was in Burma; they had an appalling time of it although he never spoke of it.

Doing good work....but the Italy and Burma vets have fallen off the radar and that is wrong.

I should also mention that the charity is building a replica Spitfire. It's marvellous.

Just another raid that circumstances [good weather and an old town centre] led to a massive firestorm.

I've understood this was not the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Post-war_debate

And yes, wikipedia is full of shit and blah-blah-blah...

It's for those based in the North West so far, it's already nearly double the size of last year's outing. My Grandpa was in Burma; they had an appalling time of it although he never spoke of it.

My GF fought in ww1 and had respect for the Germans as did those who fought against them in ww2....but the attitudes towards the japanese border on race hatred and often they did not speak about it. Two short stories a former boyfriend of my mums was in Burma...6 foot tall and 12 stone came back about 7 stone and he was not a pow! A friend of mine was out there and told me that a Gurkha officer had had his hands chopped off by the japanese.....immediately, a group of gurkhas went into the jungle with their kukras...a scream was heard....and they came back with a pair of boots...inside which were a pair of Japanese feet.....a brutal war too....airmen were executed if caught.......General Slim told his men to 'go into the jungle and kill as many slit eyed bastards as they could find'.....the men cheered.....history is always a matter of context.

I've understood this was not the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Post-war_debate

And yes, wikipedia is full of shit and blah-blah-blah...

Read this....Michael Burleigh is good historian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2004/feb/07/featuresreviews.guardianreview2

Taylor's book is very good.

I should also mention that the charity is building a replica Spitfire. It's marvellous.

Where is it going to be put?

Me = Jonny come-lately. I just read the Alexander McQueen thread! Sheesh. What a fucking mess. No wonder you guys are being a bit tetchy with each other.

Where is it going to be put?

Berlin ;p

In the air hopefully.

hahahahahahahahahaha.....those last post were funny

Yes Ben...if was full on war....[hangs head in shame].....but we have moved on and all friends again!

Read this....Michael Burleigh is good historian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2004/feb/07/featuresreviews.guardianreview2

Taylor's book is very good.

"Michael Burleigh is won over by Dresden, Frederick Taylor's staunch defence of the bombing raid condemned by others as a war crime[.]"

(Emphasis mine.)

Who cares if the bombing of Dresden is a war crime, in those times a Dead German was a good German.

"Michael Burleigh is won over by Dresden, Frederick Taylor's staunch defence of the bombing raid condemned by others as a war crime[.]"

(Emphasis mine.)

That is why its a debate....not everyone agrees on the effectiveness or morality of the raid....it is not clear cut.

Who cares if the bombing of Dresden is a war crime, in those times a Dead German was a good German.

Spot on...my dad had that view until he died in 1988...and that included Germans born after the war...i tried to explain that he was totally wrong but he would not change his mind.....the key words are in those times......i think the war crime is mainly a red herring circulated firstly by Goebbels propganda war machine, then the communist regime and now by neo-nazis to either maintain loyalty to the regime, develop an anti-anglo-american stance or deflect criticism from the holocaust. The accuastions from AC Greyling is different as it is principled though i still disagree with him.

"Michael Burleigh is won over by Dresden, Frederick Taylor's staunch defence of the bombing raid condemned by others as a war crime[.]"

(Emphasis mine.)

Of course it was a war crime. Not the first and not the last one committed during that conflict on both sides.

What we understand as a war crime is the killing of civilians, yes? Far more disturbing were also acts of ethnic cleansing inflicted by victims of German/Soviet attacts on their own communities during the chaotic occupation in struggle over the disputed borders - in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Ukraine, South East Poland, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia - were neighbours killed their best friends or relatives in revenge attacks, because someone was a Jew, Orthodox, Communist, Nationalist etc.
This one was a really dark chapter in modern history and commonly erased from history books by communist academics.

Of course it was a war crime. Not the first and not the last one committed during that conflict on both sides.

What we understand as a war crime is the killing of civilians, yes? Far more disturbing were also acts of ethnic cleansing inflicted by victims of German/Soviet attacts on their own communities during the chaotic occupation in struggle over the disputed borders - in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Ukraine, South East Poland, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia - were neighbours killed their best friends or relatives in revenge attacks, because someone was a Jew, Orthodox, Communist, Nationalist etc.
This one was a really dark chapter in modern history and commonly erased from history books by communist academics.

Though i don't agree that Dresden was a war crime and i do agree with your second paragraph.....historians from the soviet bloc played fast and loose with the *truth *for poltical posturing and proganda during the cold war.

That is why its a debate....not everyone agrees on the effectiveness or morality of the raid....it is not clear cut.

See, although this does go ad hominem, to start a thread about one of the worst incidents in World War II--by a guy who flaunts his political colours (if I am wrong with this one, please, do correct me and explain the real reason for the choice of nickname and avatar) in his profile--without taking any sides, but just giving us the usual about moral grey areas, is a provocation in my eyes. I cannot see the purpose of the thread and dislike your way of trying to detach yourself from it.

And even after this you drop hints that you appreciate a historian who does not think the raid was a war crime. And this is not trollish behaviour?

Hey, how about the wacky strange fruit the trees bore in the good ol' Southern states? Fun for some or just plain naughty? Discuss!

(That probably does not work as well, but I couldn't come up with anything better. Sorry about that.)

[QUOTE=skunkworks;1212843]See, although this does go ad hominem, to start a thread about one of the worst incidents in World War II--by a guy who flaunts his political colours (if I am wrong with this one, please, do correct me and explain the real reason for the choice of nickname and avatar) in his profile--without taking any sides, but just giving us the usual about moral grey areas, is a provocation in my eyes. I cannot see the purpose of the thread and dislike your way of trying to detach yourself from it.

And even after this you drop hints that you appreciate a historian who does not think the raid was a war crime. And this is not trollish behaviour?....No!

Neither do i think it was a war crime ust a raid that went horribly wrong and ironically Dr Burleigh taught me whilst i was at university..he is a very good historian...and i have made my position clear throughout.. ...iam a British military historian with an interest in Bomber Command and on the evidence, to me Dresden was a successful raid which led to carnage but who is to blame for that? The soviets for wanting the raid? Churchill for suggesting the target? Harris for planning it? Bomber Command for doing their job so well? Dresden authorities for a lack of fire fighting equipment or Hitler and his elite for wanting war a war of annihalation against the USSR in the first place? For me you can point your finger at all of them except the Harris and the RAF as bombing Germany was their raison d'etre.....if you don't want them then don't use them....don't blame them if they do a job that you asked to do and their only crime is to what you wanted very successfully....that is hypocrisy and unfair on every person in Bomber Command.

I am a socialist but i am not blinded by what people and regimes have done in the name of socialism and if you read my posts they are not doctrinaire but a historian must even with the limits of their beliefs remain objective and that is what i have tried to do and always try to do......earler and i think it was vinylvillain who pointed out that marxism failed and i said the said....marxism did not fail but the muddled but brave attempt to put marxism into practice[aka leninism] failed. It failed because the regime failed to love or trust the people....is that honest enough....and perpetrated a cruel regime across the planet and thus failed to defeat capitalism and explotation.

Hey, how about the wacky strange fruit the trees bore in the good ol' Southern states? Fun for some or just plain naughty? Discuss!.

Do you mean slavery or have i missed the point?....If so whack it and lets discuss that....that should be a good debate too.

Do you mean slavery or have i missed the point?....If so whack it and lets discuss that....that should be a good debate too.

Nah, man -- I just tried to, well, fuck it, I don't know. I failed.

I've vented enough already. And as it has been proven my English does not allow me express what I mean the way I want it to, I should steer clear of topics like this.

Over and out.

Nah, man -- I just tried to, well, fuck it, I don't know. I failed.

I've vented enough already. And as it has been proven my English does not allow me express what I mean the way I want it to, I should steer clear of topics like this.

Over and out.

Take care of yourself and YOU did not fail.....you made your point.

In response to not 'learning from the past'...

I understand the post wasn't directed at me, however the forgotten famine is very rarely brought up...where as people are constantly harping on about dresden....and it's a tiny part of the larger picture.

We fail to learn from the past on many levels...don't get me started on Tesla, Schauberger, and Wilhem Reich.

The world would be an infinitely better place is any body had ever heard about them...and we then talk about the same old shit once again, and you get called all manner of things for even mantioning their names....

I am totally in aagreement about the health and beauty though...;)...phd in Madonna anyone?...pppffftttttttt....

don't get me started on Tesla, Schauberger, and Wilhem Reich.

I promise that I won't...

Thankyou, I would hate to see that confused look in your eye...

I got a parking fine in Dresden last fall, because of shitty placement of signes and they had hidden the machine... They took away the car and all the german bastards that we had to talk to to get the car back thought it was really funny and we had to pay 110 euros... grrr

I think they should bomb Dresden again.