65th Aniversary of the RAF's raid on Dresden

I can't remember how many missions he did before becoming a trainer but Masovia is South East of Warsaw but the family lived in Lvow which is now in the Ukraine and he went to University there before the war.

After the war he emigrated to Chicago but now lives about an hour or so further out. Funnily enough he became a chippy ;p

Many RAF navigators became teachers after the war....one navigator descibed their training as being equivalent to doing a university degree.....my cousin messed up as a pilot and navigator and ended up a gunner/wireless op.....clearly more brains in your family but equal amount of courage.

If you are interested about Polish Squadrons of the time then read a book called "For Your Freedom and Ours" its about the Kosciuszko Squadron 303 and how Britain lost its "Honour" at the end of the war by turning its back on its closest allies. They also had the highest kill rate and lowest loss in the Battle of Britain even though they entered in to it late.

Not Polish but a honouree Pole (Czech) who flew with the Squadron but seemed to like to hunt on his own http://www.bbm.org.uk/Frantisek.htm

I think the Orchard Pub is still there not sure if they still have the old photos on view.

If you are interested about Polish Squadrons of the time then read a book called "For Your Freedom and Ours" its about the Kosciuszko Squadron 303 and how Britain lost its "Honour" at the end of the war by turning its back on its closest allies. They also had the highest kill rate and lowest loss in the Battle of Britain even though they entered in to it late.

Not Polish but a honouree Pole (Czech) who flew with the Squadron but seemed to like to hunt on his own http://www.bbm.org.uk/Frantisek.htm

I think the Orchard Pub is still there not sure if they still have the old photos on view.

Do you have a copy that i could borrow?

British [ie government or diplomatic] honour?...i never knew it existed....eg Munich .....British diplomacy has always looked after British self interests first and bugger the rest! British *people *by and large are fine. If you were to shake hands with the government, counted your fingers afterwards....a few will be missing!

Do you have a copy that i could borrow?

British [ie government or diplomatic] honour?...i never knew it existed....eg Munich .....British diplomacy has always looked after British self interests first and bugger the rest! British *people *by and large are fine. If you were to shake hands with the government, counted your fingers afterwards....a few will be missing!

Out of the mouth of Churchill ;p

Where are you located as I have a copy of the book?

Marxist Fixie, I think you would do well to re-read my posts in the Alexander McQueen thread. The reason I challenged you was because I found your tone and attitude to be deplorable in the context of a thread started to pay tribute to the untimely death of a human being. Im sorry if you find the notion of tributes to a dead celebrity trite or sentimental but, as has been pointed out, he meant something to some people and that in itself ought to be enough for you (and I) to have a little respect.

I was in no way aggressive to you, be it personally or otherwise. I have looked back and I stand by my comments though I do recognise that they are somewhat abrupt. This abruptness was borne out of frustration with your domineering flurry of posts, which on this thread and others have seemed 'bombastic and unnecessarily confrontational' (to quote myself :s ). I apologise sincerely if you felt I was rude.

If however you're referring to my comments about Platini then that's an entirely different matter; he takes pleasure in being a horrible git and I find that offensive (very uncool and Daily Mail of me I know...).

Skully, I appreciate your help in this and I like you too ;)

For what it's worth I'll sign off with a link to my girlfriend's website for a charity she started a year ago following our government's funding cuts for veterans of World War II. We both feel very passionately that ordinary people that have been asked or required to risk their lives for other people's freedom should be held in great esteem and remembered. My experience of architecture (the profession) has taught me that often individuals get forgotten in the quest to 'conquer' academic discourse, and so I find any justification of any act of war a bitter pill to swallow. Later this year the charity will fund the return of 150 veterans to Normandy on the the 66th anniversary of D-Day.

www.d-dayrevisited.co.uk

Blessed are the wine carriers.

There's more fuss over Dresden than Hiroshima ironically enough.

Pattern bombing does more damage than the 10 or 20 megaton bombs they used. Although they have some fatty 200 megaton or something ones now. Although this is the kind of thing that would be said by someone who goes on about the proper way to slit your wrists or fight off a great white.

^^ Actually could someone quote that cos MF is ignoring me.

Out of the mouth of Churchill ;p

Where are you located as I have a copy of the book?

Not sure if that is an insult or a compliment? [LOL]

I am in Cambridge and will be in London this Sunday coming [21 Feb].

Where is the Orchard pub?....Read the bit about Frantisek....nut...but a brave one...perhaps this October we could organise a tribute ride from London to Northwood where he is buried....as it will be 70 years since his tragic death on 8 October 1940.

Are the sharks gathering for an attack or just watching? One has gone and two are still circling.

Pattern bombing does more damage than the 10 or 20 megaton bombs they used. Although they have some fatty 200 megaton or something ones now. Although this is the kind of thing that would be said by someone who goes on about the proper way to slit your wrists or fight off a great white.

Area bombing especialy in 10/10 cloud can be very inaccurate and indescriminate....there was no such issue with Dresden it was expertly marked by 5 Group and a firestorm did the rest....marking targets became very successful and less indescriminate but the aim was to destroy industry...officially factories but we all know that workers live close to factories.....so the aim was the destruction of both as unpalatable as that seems.....'The ends justifies the means...as long as the ends are justified'.....Leon Trotsky. This what this debate is about 'were the ends justified....i believe yes and others say no. Mine are for military reasons and not out of hatred for the Germans.

The Orchard is in Ruislip http://www.ruislip.co.uk/pubs/orchard.htm

When I was a kid growing up in Shepherds Bush my old neighbour told me about a bombing mission he was on in his Mosquito and where the plane was badly shot up and he'd lost his lights, navigation and was flying blind and was out of fuel and hadn't got a clue where he was, he saw lights in the distance and had to land but as the plane came to a stop it was surrounded by airmen with guns pointing in his direction jabbering away in a foreign language, he nearly shit himself as he thought he had landed in Germany but in fact had landed at Northholt, he said it took him two days to recover from the hangover as him his crew member and some pilots got absolutely pissed at the Orchard.

Josh...you and i said things to each which were hurtful and unpleasant and that goes bothways.....and life is too short to make enemies....Perhaps you should my posts again too!.....So let us end this petty feud and lets shake hands if only in cycber space....what do you say?

Marxist Fixie, I think you would do well to re-read my posts in the Alexander McQueen thread. The reason I challenged you was because I found your tone and attitude to be deplorable in the context of a thread started to pay tribute to the untimely death of a human being. Im sorry if you find the notion of tributes to a dead celebrity trite or sentimental but, as has been pointed out, he meant something to some people and that in itself ought to be enough for you (and I) to have a little respect.

I was in no way aggressive to you, be it personally or otherwise. I have looked back and I stand by my comments though I do recognise that they are somewhat abrupt. This abruptness was borne out of frustration with your domineering flurry of posts, which on this thread and others have seemed 'bombastic and unnecessarily confrontational' (to quote myself :s ). I apologise sincerely if you felt I was rude.

If however you're referring to my comments about Platini then that's an entirely different matter; he takes pleasure in being a horrible git and I find that offensive (very uncool and Daily Mail of me I know...).

Skully, I appreciate your help in this and I like you too ;)

For what it's worth I'll sign off with a link to my girlfriend's website for a charity she started a year ago following our government's funding cuts for veterans of World War II. We both feel very passionately that ordinary people that have been asked or required to risk their lives for other people's freedom should be held in great esteem and remembered. My experience of architecture (the profession) has taught me that often individuals get forgotten in the quest to 'conquer' academic discourse, and so I find any justification of any act of war a bitter pill to swallow. Later this year the charity will fund the return of 150 veterans to Normandy on the the 66th anniversary of D-Day.

www.d-dayrevisited.co.uk

Blessed are the wine carriers.

I believe yes and others say no. Mine are for military reasons and not out of hatred for the Germans.

Mine are for both ;p for that period of time as the younger generation are ok'ish...... ;p

Woo. Good work fellas. Let's keep it civil!

Also read about Sosabowski and how Montgomery turned on him. My mates dad used to work with him in Acton.

Woo. Good work fellas. Let's keep it civil!

In what way? ;p

Josh...you and i said things to each which were hurtful and unpleasant and that goes bothways.....and life is too short to make enemies....Perhaps you should my posts again too!.....So let us end this petty feud and lets shake hands if only in cycber space....what do you say?

Ok, deal, but please check yourself before you wreck yourself.

I've already asked to be friends again in that 'ALAN for sale' thread!

Also read about Sosabowski and how Montgomery turned on him. My mates dad used to work with him in Acton.

Monty was a brilliant general but he had his faults and how to talk to people.....Now who else do you know who is a bit like that???

Do your research ;o)))

Now who else do you know who is a bit like that???

:-I

Looks like we should meet up at a pub to get drunk have a discussion and a punch up ;p

Ok, deal, but please check yourself before you wreck yourself.

I've already asked to be friends again in that 'ALAN for sale' thread!

And the same applies to you....you are off 'ignore'....harmony returns....Jaw, jaw is better tah war, war [churchill]...and on this occassion he is right.

My father in law is a Normandy vet...what criteria will be used for choosing the 150?....i get a bit annoyed that the Italy and Burma vets tend to get ignored.

But as you are an architect...you might appreciate this....a friend of mine was at a dinner in 1980 in Cologne to celebrate the end of te war...his father was in the RAF and with them was a man who a wing commander in bomber command and took part in many raids over that city. The mayor praised the British for not being cultural barbarians because they never bombed the beautiful medieval cathedral. the wing commander turned to my friend and said that we missed it as the cathedral was the *aiming *point for each raid and each time they missed it every time.

My father served some of his time on this ship as a mechanic [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Batory[/ame] and that is why my name is Stefan

Looks like we should meet up at a pub to get drunk have a discussion and a punch up ;p

as Harry Hill says....'fight'

My father in law is a Normandy vet...what criteria will be used for choosing the 150?....i get a bit annoyed that the Italy and Burma vets tend to get ignored.

It's for those based in the North West so far, it's already nearly double the size of last year's outing. My Grandpa was in Burma; they had an appalling time of it although he never spoke of it.