65th Aniversary of the RAF's raid on Dresden

Thankyou, I would hate to see that confused look in your eye...

How did you know that I only have one eye?

Ahhh...simple watson...

looked at your times, surmised you had a wooden leg...and from there worked out you also had an eyepatch.

Ahhh...simple watson...

looked at your times, surmised you had a wooden leg...and from there worked out you also had an eyepatch.

Ahh the return of harmony and mutual lack...or the lack of!

Wingedangel...you are totally correct about how certain events get ignored...and the famine is one that should not be ignored...ever!.....Ask someone in the street to name a German and they will probably say Hitler [even though he was from Austria]....not Bach or Beethoven or Schiller etc etc......Sad!

I started the Dresden threat...partly because it is of interest to me and it was the 65th anniversary.....but i have gained a lot from the input from people who have contributed to this thread including yourself, Okiver et al...and hopefully you from me...but most important that open and frank debate is important focussing on the issues and not personalities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill,_Hitler_and_the_Unnecessary_War

He was my great grandad....

.......I started the Dresden threat.......

Yes, you most certainly did. And parapraxis duly noted.

Sometimes its not what you say, but what people hear.

Or, the meaning breaks free from mental constraints, all of its own volition.

;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill,_Hitler_and_the_Unnecessary_War

Wiki is notorious for bad history!

Yes, you most certainly did. And parapraxis duly noted.

Sometimes its not what you say, but what people hear.

Or, the meaning breaks free from mental constraints, all of its own volition.

;)

In history, it is not what happened that mattered.....but what people belive happened!.....wait till May...65th aniversary of VE Day...6 August...65th anni of Hiroshima....so expect more threads...assuming that i have not been banned!

Wiki is notorious for bad history!

if you'd read the contents on the linked page, you'd relaise that is not wiki history, only a review of a book.

He was my great grandad....

On your mother's or father's side?

if you'd read the contents on the linked page, you'd relaise that is not wiki history, only a review of a book.

Anything carried by wiki on history is suspect....and that one used no cited evidence.

However by fighting ww2...led to the virtual bankruptcy and the loss of the empire.....but what would have happened to Britain had they come to terms with Nazi Germany...easily done....Would Hitler have allowed Britain to keep its empire?....What would have happened to Jews in the UK or in the empire?....Britain went to war for her own self interest....devil or the deep blue sea....a lose...lose situation....but at least Britain did nor climb down again like at Munich and retained a crumb of decency.....yet we all know Britain never went to war to defend Poland as that was never possible....Poland was a moral line in the sand....Hitler could not go beyond that point!.....it was an issue of british not losing face again!....So war became inevitable.

Anything carried by wiki on history is suspect....and that one used no cited evidence.

Good point MF... maybe you should go back through the thread and add footnotes?

Good point MF... maybe you should go back through the thread and add footnotes?

Good idea but it gets worse...i noticed the author...Pat Buchanan...a very right wing politician from the USA....and is a muddled work and bears no understanding of the needs of Britain's self interest and as a super power both in 1914 and 1939...could not stand asise and be neutral....Niall Ferguson [a noted historian...also right wing] in The Pity of war [ww1] advocated British neutrality.....both are using hindsight...not forsight and inter-war years were confusing for Britain who were a weakened power but still very important in world diplomacy....My guess is that Buchanan will object to the fact that that WW2 led to the USSR becoming a super power....Buchanan was an advisor to Nixon and Reagan!

If I'm not mistaken, Ronald Reagan had only one adviser, and that was Nancy Reagan - the secret President that America never knew it had.

By the end of his term in office, Ronald Reagan relied totally on Nancy because of his Alzheimers, and the political machine, that is Capitol Hill, didn't want to frighten the nation, so allowed him to stay in office till his time was up.

For another MF threat thread perhaps? ;)

Of course Pat Buchanan may have been his adviser, as I am tremulous to argue with you.

if you'd read the contents on the linked page, you'd relaise that is not wiki history, only a review of a book.

I've got one problem with this book. It reflects inbred arrogance of Western nations, a blind belief in their superiority and self-importance.
The same notion - of meddling with regimes in far away countries if there's a promise of substantial material gain, but ignoring trouble on your doorstep for sake of few more minutes of peace and undisturbed financial growth - forced Britain and/or the US to send troops to Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's nice to see more balanced use of historical sources, but stating, that war could be prevented if Britain let Nazis expand in Eastern Europe and that Czechs discriminated German minority in a country which *not supposed to be created *(sic!) is nauseating.

Eastern/Central Europe isn't a fantasy land. There are countries as old as England and much older then the USA. "Taking" their land to create a living space is an act of war per se. So, perhaps what author meant was - yes, there would be a world war, but with neutral Britain supplying arms to the sides of the conflict and all the neocolonial empires would again stay on top unscathed ruling happily over the Brave New World. Oh, fuck off!

if i'm not mistaken, ronald reagan had only one adviser, and that was nancy reagan - the secret president that america never knew it had.

By the end of his term in office, ronald reagan relied totally on nancy because of his alzheimers, and the political machine, that is capitol hill, didn't want to frighten the nation, so allowed him to stay in office till his time was up.

For another mf threat thread perhaps? ;)

of course pat buchanan may have been his adviser, asi am tremulous to argue with you.

lol!... a MF threat....blimey, enough people hate me already!...without threats being thrown about willy nilly!.....GA2G...you split me.....serious giggles after i read your post....You sir...are a card!

I've got one problem with this book. It reflects inbred arrogance of Western nations, a blind belief in their superiority and self-importance.
The same notion - of meddling with regimes in far away countries if there's a promise of substantial material gain, but ignoring trouble on your doorstep for sake of few more minutes of peace and undisturbed financial growth - forced Britain and/or the US to send troops to Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's nice to see more balanced use of historical sources, but stating, that war could be prevented if Britain let Nazis expand in Eastern Europe and that Czechs discriminated German minority in a country which *not supposed to be created *(sic!) is nauseating.

Eastern/Central Europe isn't a fantasy land. There are countries as old as England and much older then the USA. "Taking" their land to create a living space is an act of war per se. So, perhaps what author meant was - yes, there would be a world war, but with neutral Britain supplying arms to the sides of the conflict and all the neocolonial empires would again stay on top unscathed ruling happily over the Brave New World. Oh, fuck off!

Munich was another example of great power diplomacy imposed on 'little' states by their diplomatic 'superiors'......British neurality is naive...but lets not lose sight of the fact Britain only helped other nations if it suited her needs and not out of altruism. Though Britain and not entering the vietnam is interesting.....Nixon offered Britain as many cheap loans as they needed if they sent troops to vietnam and Wilson refused.....but i doubt it was a case of taking the higher moral ground...he was being pragmatic....British body bags would hit Wilson in the ballot box!

The old Labour was in power then and I don't think their electorate would support such action at that time.

The old Labour was in power then and I don't think their electorate would support such action at that time.

True of their core electorate but not those who voted for him in the marginals but i don't think that was Wilson's priority.....remaining in power!...True it failed in 1970 [the voters in the marginals deserted him] anyway but for him Vietnam was just too risky politically....not morally.

I remember watching the newsreels from Vietnam at that time....and the only thing i recall is the amount of american soldiers killed by the own side through accidents, what we now call friendly fire!

I only read the first couple of pages - has anyone told MF that his use.....of ellipsis makes his..............posts almost impossible...............................to read?

forum dresden ride! ending up in outside the ministry and the statue of bomber harris. could start from trafalgar square take in a few pubs on the way.
we just need a spoke card and some nazi armbands.
it's gonna be a hoot!

1. MrSmyth
   
   

I cycled to Dresden in 2005. Didn't know anything about bombing raids at the time so I spent my time there with some girls from the local youth hostel.

We can go back to Bierbar Ass..

I only read the first couple of pages - has anyone told MF that his use.....of ellipsis makes his..............posts almost impossible...............................to read?

I'm doing my best to control it but! At least it is not a total wipe out and look sans ellipse and i don't use that many!!

don't ban him.
tell him to go for a bike ride round the fields of northern france and flanders*
there's quite a few things to see there that would make you think in a different way about the war instead of intellectually theorising about the nazi winning majority and Britains bombing policy.

*i want to do this. always wanted to go to the memorial graveyards though not sure why.

Also cycled to Ypres. This is the Menin Gate. It is dedicated to the Commonwealth soldiers killed in WWI who don't have known graves. Since 1928 every night at 8, they play the Last Post. It's a very moving experience. The surrounding area is also well worth cycling around. There's lots of memorials and preserved/recreated examples of trench warfare life..

Also cycled to Ypres. This is the Menin Gate. It is dedicated to the Commonwealth soldiers killed in WWI who don't have known graves. Since 1928 every night at 8, they play the Last Post. It's a very moving experience. The surrounding area is also well worth cycling around. There's lots of memorials and preserved/recreated examples of trench warfare life..

The service took place during WW2 whilst Wipers was occupied by the Germans!...I have a cousin whose name is on the Thiepval memorial on the Somme; for those without a known grave.