Jade Goody's dead

You might be right here.

What I mean by 'ticks all the correct Guardian reader boxes' was that his (John Diamond's) departure was a world apart from Jade's flaming roller-coaster loaded with media Semtex™ ending - I wasn't trying to make any bigger point than that.

I'll buy you a drink if that is actually how she's chosen to go out, that would be a fitting departure I think. It'll certainly be an easy week for the journos.
Nice cog and balls btw!

Not eidetic - no recall of images.

I blame sleep-deprivation and the then concurrent thread on another forum about a dead baby twin. All cheery stuff.

The not-thinking-dead-mum's-a-joke bit still stands.

I was generalizing, wasn't referring to any of your post, I dont typically read them...
The only point I made was a general observation about people and what I do ... "simply avoid" what is of nil interest - bit like the car thread, you dont like it?, avoid it as best you can.......

...chill

I was chilled, I am chilled, I do chill an awful lot...discourse is not by definition unchilled... now, step to it instead of evading it - what did you mean by

alot of people preach how bad things are or how opposed they are to certain things in society... but you often find they are the very ones helping contribute to keeping it alive...

it's a valid question and as I said I took it that you weren't necessarily referring directly to my post - so what did you mean by this?

Your position isn't clear coming out of this statement though the tone is somehow sniffy - so how exactly are the people that profess they are opposed to any given issue in society helping to contribute to keeping it alive? as I said, by this do you mean that you believe they are equally or in some part to blame for the perpetuation of those things?

heavy shit guys. i just joined this and am wondering if bikes are ever on the agenda or is it mostly Jade fucking Goody?

I need to get a new machine. mate has a new Pista bomba and i am looking for a similar thing...any pointers as to where to go for quality but without piss take prices?

yours,

M Clifford

Phil/Pajamas, Your argument is good but in this matter irrelevant .It boils down to whether her actions in her life -being a reality Tv star- warrant** your **seeming hatred of her in her death. In my eyes this is kinda excessive. Yes she was annoying and acted as a figurehead (by choice?) to the "I do what the fuck I want so you either like me or you can fuck off I don't give a shit and it's all about the benjamins" generation but I still can't get past the fact that she was a 27 year mother of two who died a painful death.

if you're using "your" in the direct sense (i.e. adressing me) rather than the plural to generalise you need to re-read my post(s). I don't believe that I wrote anything that can be seen to be expressive of hatred for Jaed Goooddy in her death. I don't believe I've written anything expressing sympathy, empathy, hatred or piss-taking.

For the record, sympathy, empathy, love, hatred etc. don't come cheap in my book. I don't have any understanding of why a person who didn't have some personal connection with her would think they felt any emotions for her. Emotional bloodlettings-by-proxy aren't my thing. Save your emotions for when you need them most. There will be people who you have actually loved with all your heart who leave you and will leave you devastated. Don't cheapen that by giving even a casual toss about someone who has merely hogged the limelight in your country for a few years.

I was chilled, I am chilled, I do chill an awful lot...discourse is not by definition unchilled... now, step to it instead of evading it - what did you mean by

it's a valid question and as I said I took it that you weren't necessarily referring directly to my post - so what did you mean by this?

Your position isn't clear coming out of this statement though the tone is somehow sniffy - so how exactly are the people that profess they are opposed to any given issue in society helping to contribute to keeping it alive? as I said, by this do you mean that you believe they are equally or in some part to blame for the perpetuation of those things?

Im not interested in expressing my opinion is depth on this forum, its pointless.

Once bitten , twice shy....

I made a basic observation and mentioned it in a passing post ...that is all.

you're good at expressing your own points in writing, I am not... so, when you are next out and about, if you're lucky enough to bump into me :p.. I'll happily take it up with you or anyone else over a pint face to face, until then, I have nothing else to say about it.

:0)

I don't have any understanding of why a person who didn't have some personal connection with her would think they felt any emotions for her.

Pretty troubling misanthropy.

I would, I suspect, bore you with an explanation of my own empathetic feelings towards not just other humans, but anything with warm blood and a couple of eyes towards the top if it's body, but let me offer you this story from a young man in a rain storm:

*"

well I don't know what's shaken me up more, wrapping it in camden or seeing a thread devoted to my wellbeing. Thanks guys, you really are very kind, I feel a little undeserving of it as I have manged to avoid breaking anything. In the end the verdict was basically "you'll live", which I'm very glad of, obviously. . . . .
Thanks for the concern guys, esp someone relatively fresh to the forum. Tynan, thanks for keeping track of things man. And thanks for the texts. It really is a community on here, I feel very good to have spent time with you.
"*

What the fuck is this . . . . Texts !? Concern !? Community !? what is this, some repudiation of social Darwinism ? :P - Why on earth would these people, with no personal connection to you, be genuinely concerned about your well being (god knows I received almost as many PM's as there were posts in that thread checking out if you were cool, what you had done to yourself, where you were taken, was you bike taken care of, do you need any help and so on).

It appears the people looking out for you had no personal connection, you were new to the forum, you were just another cyclist - and - oddly - that was enough for people, that is all they needed for their highly tuned and innate sense of empathy to kick in, no qualification, no history, just another one of us in trouble, no need for personal connection.

I shouldn't extrapolate your position any further than you might have intended it, but hopefully you might see how utterly indefensible it is to suggest that you need a personal connection with someone to feel any emotions for them.

Well stereotypes or not I meant that phrases such as 'that ticks all the correct Guardian reader boxes' and 'may not have done any of the things the middle class find so distasteful' are fairly 'broad-brush' (or whatever the saying is) remarks that somewhat belittle your arguments.
If you feel that many of the attacks on this dead woman are made because of her class or social status don't you feel that it's not too persuasive to retort with arguments containing class-based generalisations built on the same foundations as those you are arguing against?

Isn't this a variation on the (flawed) argument: "you say white society is prejudiced against black people; therefore you are racist towards white people"?

I don't think there's anything wrong in Tynan pointng out that John Diamond was lucky enough to have the opportunity to fulfill upper middle class expectations of conduct when he died, and that Goody didn't have that luxury. It's worth pointing out the position of priviledge that the shit being flung at this woman is coming from.

Im not interested in expressing my opinion is depth on this forum, its pointless

hey come on, it hasn't stopped anyone else.

while I am left hangin' by your unwillingness to expand further on what I thought might be an interesting point - fair enough, it's up to you.

you're good at expressing your own points in writing

that's only, like, your opinion man

when you are next out and about, I'll happily take it up with you... over a pint face to face

sadly over a pint, face to face, it's going to be a longshot getting a conversation of this sort going with me...

Isn't this a variation on the (flawed) argument: "you say white society is prejudiced against black people; therefore you are racist towards white people"?

I don't think there's anything wrong in Tynan pointng out that John Diamond was lucky enough to have the opportunity to fulfill upper middle class expectations of conduct when he died, and that Goody didn't have that luxury. It's worth pointing out the position of priviledge that the shit being flung at this woman is coming from.

Yes !

Naked and genuine support for my position !

Seeds, I love you, if you ever think of splitting off with me and forming a radical fixed gear forum PM me.

.

Prove it, dot boy.

jade goody cops it on mothers day...(max clifford is the modern day Goebbels.)

Yes !

Naked and genuine support for my position !

Seeds, I love you, if you ever think of splitting off with me and forming a radical fixed gear forum PM me.

Thank you very much for the kind offer, unfortunately I don't know how to ride a bike and I only come on here for the arguments.

Thank you very much for the kind offer, unfortunately I don't know how to ride a bike and I only come on here for the arguments.

Fuck you, you fucking fuck.

Who dat? Chill the fuck out. So by being able to tune this shit out, I'm a smug cunt? How does that work then? [/qoute]

READ what I said: "I wish I could be like some of the smug cunts here"
some being the operative word. If you feel that you are a smug cunt then indeed so be it. If you don't feel like that then you can move on.
I find a lot of this glorification of the inane and irrelevant deeply uninteresting and at time depressing. Don't get me wrong* really *I wish I could be just like you- all un-bothered and unflustered.

Donald Bird rocks, what is wrong with jazz mags?

[quote]I see you've got a plan, albeit a misanthropic one that involves killing people, say about 70% of the British population? And you spend your "bad days" thinking about this do you?

Yeah. That is my big plan- kill 70% of the popluation. Yes?
Granted I was in a pretty shittty mood but a little misanthropism is good for the soul.

As to using the internet to rail against the 'Global Village' that we live in, now that's ironic.

Irony that may be but that doesn't devalue the point. Are you suggesting that the internet is 100% good? Because I use it I can't question it?
To me it feels like there is little mystery left and that it would be a little interesting to be unconnected for a little while.

Prove it, dot boy.

ha! oops... the reply fell a bit short there...

so.... here's what I tried to post, now falling a bit long:

I shouldn't extrapolate your position any further than you might have intended it, but hopefully you might see how utterly indefensible it is to suggest that you need a personal connection with someone to feel any emotions for them.
It's a good post tynan, and I appreciate your point, but you are extrapolating my position a fair bit more than I intended.

I was just off to bed again but a couple of things that may make my position a little clearer, or a little muddier*.

1) I genuinely don't see what business it is of anyone unrelated (in the broadest sense) to Jad Gooddy what she has done in the last seven years unless they have been compelled to identify with her / take part in the gossip she has generated / be fascinated by her, all of which have been artificially constructed by the media and as a result of media exposure. She leaves nothing behind for those unconnected to her that can be considered anything other than part of this construction - she is not a musician, a scientist, a film maker, a shop owner, a community centre organiser. She was thrust upon everyone whether they liked it or not - she did nothing to earn anything (love, hatred, sympathy etc) outside of her media construction from anyone unconnected to her in her personal life. Surely, then, this includes any news of her death?

Am I misanthropic just because I have no idea why anyone who has no personal connection to her should feel anything about her death? Don't get me wrong here - I'm certainly not advocating snide remarks about her death, or piss-taking - but why should I or anyone else who has had to suffer her persistance care about her? The difference between caring about her and caring about people in general is that she has spent several years doing everything possible to be in my face and in doing so has succeeded in deeply antagonising me. So why should I care for her as much as for people I have no connection with who have never appeared in papers, on tv, gobbing off and being crass and who have never impinged on my equilibrium and who just go about their daily trials and triumphs quietly and with dignity? Just because she's died of cancer I've got to be all empathetic towards her? She alienated me long ago with her antics.

2) I genuinely was unsettled by the ensuing thread 'devoted to my well-being' following my stack last year. I hadn't done anything to earn anyone's concern beyond the few people I'd met at that point and even they were so new to me and I to them that their concern made me feel embarrassed. But this forum, as a lot of people have seen, is an unusual place. And it connects people quicker and more firmly than a lot of other social areas of life - and the number of people you can experience this with is larger than any other situation I've been in.

In the last year there have been a bunch of people I've cared about and empathised with on here, some of whom I haven't met, some of whom I've done things for in the course of the first evenings, or rides, we met, just like a bunch of other people have for others and me. A couple of them I've had nothing to go on at all except some kind of vague recognition that we have something in common - but riding a certain kind of bike and being on a forum are tenuous connections when you look at it. So I'm not consistent in my lack of empathy for people if you start to extrapolate, of course I'm not. I'm also not trying to say I'm a great person, loads of people are much kinder and more thoughtfuland selfless than I am; all I'm trying to say is I have a massive beef with the media circus around certain people and certain scenarios, I don't think it's healthy and ultimately they all work to devalue the currency of incredibly private and defining emotions.

• like anyone gives a flying toss. I have no idea why I bang on about some things sometimes. I suppose it's cos I'm a chatterbox with no real life.
  

god, she was there to amuse in life and so she should be in death too. stupid cow.

Isn't this a variation on the (flawed) argument: "you say white society is prejudiced against black people; therefore you are racist towards white people"?

No, it's nothing like that.
What I said was essentially 'why spoil a good argument/point by using the same language against which you are arguing?'.
If you has said my point was in the vein of "you say white society is prejudiced against black people; therefore you are racist towards white people you black bastard" then you might be more along the right lines, but otherwise you misunderstood what I was writing.

what the hell are you on about. back to the polo forum for me...

READ what I said: "I wish I could be like some of the smug cunts here"
some being the operative word. If you feel that you are a smug cunt then indeed so be it. If you don't feel like that then you can move on.
[/qoute]

I am the perfect distillation of smuggishment.

[quote]
Donald Bird rocks, what is wrong with jazz mags?[/qoute]

Yikes! Forces vernacular fail on my part!

[quote]
Yeah. That is my big plan- kill 70% of the popluation. Yes?
Granted I was in a pretty shittty mood but a little misanthropism is good for the soul.
[/qoute]

Yeah, I had the hangover heebie-geebies at the time too. There is something cathartic about thoughts of mass murder though.

[quote]
Irony that may be but that doesn't devalue the point. Are you suggesting that the internet is 100% good? Because I use it I can't question it?
To me it feels like there is little mystery left and that it would be a little interesting to be unconnected for a little while.

As I suggested before, switch it off! It's too easy to get sucked into this closed feedback loop that is the internets, I can't believe that the first thing I did this morning was see how this thread is doing. Very nicely as it happens! Must go for a walk at lunch.

I don't think it's healthy and ultimately they all work to devalue the currency of incredibly private and defining emotions.

Lots of '+1s' in there, but this really stands out.

But Gabes, she isn't dead - you know that. She's retired to St Lucia.

While the rest of St Lucia flees her impending arrival.

Am I misanthropic just because I have no idea why anyone who has no personal connection to her should feel anything about her death? Don't get me wrong here - I'm certainly not advocating snide remarks about her death, or piss-taking - but why should I or anyone else who has had to suffer her persistance care about her?

Phil, I may have got you wrong here, I dunno. Presumably you need have no connection to a child being mercilessly taunted in the playground for the colour of his/her skin to feel something for him/her? So why can you not feel something for someone who dies an unpleasant and early death, leaving her children behind - just because you had to "suffer her persistence"? Or, another question, can you feel anything for her sons?

btw - I did leave the records safely at the Coach last night, didn't I?

Phil, I may have got you wrong here, I dunno. Presumably you need have no connection to a child being mercilessly taunted in the playground for the colour of his/her skin to feel something for him/her? So why can you not feel something for someone who dies an unpleasant and early death, leaving her children behind - just because you had to "suffer her persistence"? Or, another question, can you feel anything for her sons?

btw - I did leave the records safely at the Coach last night, didn't I?

From my perspective, there's a difference between feeling bad for the girl and her family, and actually feeling a personal connection to her.

It's a shame when a person - any person - dies. As humans, we're conditioned to feel an abstract kind of 'sadness' when someone passes, whether we knew them or not. I couldn't care less about Jade Goody - I had no time for her in life, just as I have no time for her in death, but it doesn't stop me from feeling that abstract sadness that she died, or that her children will grow up without a mother.

What bothers me about some of the comments on this thread is that people are implying that by criticising or expressing a dislike of Jade Goody, that they're somehow suggesting they don't care about her, her family, or the fact she suffered at the hands of Cancer. I do feel 'bad', but it doesn't stop me from thoroughly disapproving of the way she lived her life, and feeling dismayed at how our society has bought into the celebrity culture. I resent the suggestion that we must feel bad for her and mourn her passing, when neither I nor 99.9% of the British population ever met the girl, and all we know of her is what was played over LivingTV and OK these past 5 or so years.

EDIT: Sorry - not sure I have a point to all that really. Can't really take anything too seriously having just watched the 'Cornholio' video on another thread...