Are OTPs approaching custom standards?

@vboy - semantic difference ahoy!
It's like when someone says they have just finished building a bike, when all they did was assemble it.

I feel this every time I tell someone that I have built my own bike. I made component choices, and assembled them into a bike, no more.
Built some of my tools though ;)

You could apply the same thought process to clothing. None of my clothes fit me perfectly, because they're all bought off the peg. But they fit me well enough for it not to bother me, and buying custom-made jeans/t-shirts is just not cost effective for most people. There is a market for custom-made frames, just like there are tailors who will custom-make you a suit. I think unless you have a really weird body, you'll find an OTP bike that fits.

but OTP bikes will fit 99% of people.

especially after sorting out the saddle height, the handlebar width, the stem length, the right saddle, etc. and it should fit perfectly well.

that's the beauty of the component on the bike, if the bike doesn't quite fit you, all it take is a little tweaking and/or swapping components to sort it out.

Yeah. I think most custom-stuff in general isn't really cost-effective, it could be harder selling on a custom-made frame. But then I guess that is part of the appeal.

I took the OP to be comparing OTPs to customised bikes rather than custom frames (or Scott's custom bags).

There are probably a lucky few people who have the same measurements as the bulk manufacturers sizing models, for whom an OTPs geometry would be so similar to a custom as to be indistinguishable in practice. Tough to find out though.

For me, there are so many changes you can make to the feel of a bike through positioning, stem, bars, saddle, seatpost, crank length, etc, etc. I don't think I would honestly be able to notice the difference between small tweaks in geometry so currently I'm happy to leave it to the professionals to decide what's generally right.

Mind you - if I had freaky body parts, I might change my mind. (not that anyone with a custom frame neccessarily has freakish body parts).

I'm just tired of the beef OTPs get. Even though outspoken, I know a person will not look at someone with an OTP the same way he will look at someone with a custom built bike. He/she will deny it but deep down I reckon it's the case.

Sloping top tubes mean a particular-sized bike will fit a lot more people, because of the shorter standover height. That's why most OTP's are built with it. They're easier to sell, too.

Here's a question?

If someone is fitted for a custom-made bike, will that fitting be right for them 20 years later?

Considering that feet grow wider over time, most bodies become heavier and less flexible.....

Cycling position changes over decades, as does cycling style?

Like shoes by John Lobb, he takes different measurements all during his customer relationship with him, knowing that feet change over time.

[whisper]bikesnobs[/whisper]

Sloping top tubes mean a particular-sized bike will fit a lot more people, because of the shorter standover height. That's why most OTP's are built with it. They're easier to sell, too.

I thought that was mostly for comfort? since modern material such as alu is already stiff as it is, that the frame geometry is tweaked to make the ride less stiff?

A smaller triangle will make the frame stiffer, so I don't think so.

It's more to do with people wanting to be able to put both feet down + not have the TT smash them in the crotch. Also, the saddle can be put lower, so the bike itself will fit a wider range of people, therefore being easier to sell.

I'm just tired of the beef OTPs get. Even though outspoken, I know a person will not look at someone with an OTP the same way he will look at someone with a custom built bike. He/she will deny it but deep down I reckon it's the case.

@philjay

I know EXACTLY who this person is also.

Custom-made snobbery.

OTPs get the job done, and get the unwashed onto one gear.

I actually believe (stupidly) that the die-hards/nay-sayers, could eventually be positive, rather than always disparaging. Its a futile hope sometimes.

Here's a question?

If someone is fitted for a custom-made bike, will that fitting be right for them 20 years later?

Considering that feet grow wider over time, most bodies become heavier and less flexible.....

Cycling position changes over decades, as does cycling style?

Like shoes by John Lobb, he takes different measurements all during his customer relationship with him, knowing that feet change over time.

Nope, the fit wouldn't last forever, just like a tailored suit wouldn't last forever.

I've been lucky enough to have two fittings 2 years apart, and in that time nothing needed tweaking. I'd be tempted to have another fitting in 5 years just out of curiosity. I expect things to change, but the rate of change will be imperceivable unless I become a fat sod over night.

Considering that feet grow wider over time, most bodies become heavier and less flexible.....

if they don't look after their body, that'd probably happen, my father had the same bike for 30 years since he was 20 years old, it was a peugeot bike that he spend a year working in cafes to able to purchase it (the irony here is that after a year he managed to get the money, the Peugeot PX-10 was already last year model and the price was slashed almost half the asking price, of which should take him half a year to earn the money!).

it still fit him, and he'd have still rode it to work had the BB not cracked and snapped the bike in half a couple years ago, it fit him because unlike his friend, he still weight the same as he was 30 years ago.

the Peugeot fit him better than the OTP Genesis Day 01 bike he got 2 years ago.

Smaller frames are also lighter (although need a longer seatpost which offsets a bit). But yes the original concept of the compact frame is that standover height issues go way and in theory less sizes are required by just changing stem height and length to get fit.
More for the companies profits I would say...

if they don't look after their body, that'd probably happen,

Not totally true Ed.

Your dad is not just fit, he's also lucky. Being fit when younger is easy. But its hard to fight genetic make-up, or a rapidly slowing metabolism.

The "middle-aged spread" can be explained from a bio-physiological perspective also; as can bone shrinkage, stiff joints...etc.

@philjay

I know EXACTLY who this person is also.

Custom-made snobbery.

OTPs get the job done, and get the unwashed onto one gear.

I actually believe (stupidly) that the die-hards/nay-sayers, could eventually be positive, rather than always disparaging. Its a futile hope sometimes.

Just to calrify, I'm not speaking of a specific individual yes? ^_^

i like the felt otp.

i have been thinkin about buying it for a while now. (to replace the kona paddywagon). but it is designed for the track and i am not sure how it would hold up for legging it around london ?

what do you reckon ?

If by custom we mean custom fitted, and by OTP we mean sold as a complete bike.
Then is this OTP* Mercian any worse than a custom Mercian (pressuming one of the umteen sizes it comes in fits you).

(*I realise they would change bits if you asked, but it can still be bought OTP)

The number of OTPs is increasing, which means you are more likely to be able to find a bike that fits you not only in terms of size but in terms of appearance, and componentry. Alot of companys are also taking fixed gear bikes more seriously and producing higher end OTPs.

Having said that, I'm with Scott not Scott with regards to buying handmade. There might well be no performance benefit, but it sure makes me appreciate the bike more.

If you can afford a handmade bike then fair enough. I've never seen the point in having £3k in your sweaty palms and then going down your local Evans for them to show you an OTP bike with standard components. If you have the money then go to Condor etc for them to advise you on stem length etc. If you have even more money, get measured up and have the frame built to size.

Let's face it, the one constant is money. I bought a Langster not because I really wanted one, but it was in my budget and it seemed OK. I'm now looking for a replacement (if the insurance pays up), if I can afford it I'll get a Potenza. If I had more money I'd see a framebuilder. Whether someone thinks I'm a twat because I ride (rode) a Langster, well that's there look out. For some people an OTP is the only option. If people start looking down on OTP riders then we truly have become the new golf!

If people start looking down on OTP riders then we truly have become the new golf!

Why not. we're already wearing the tweed ;)

I think you all know my fave OTP.

I'm not sure anyone is looking down on OTP riders, nor are we looking down on OTPs in general. The Specialized Tri Cross has had more attention than any other bike recently and is almost universally praised.

All I'm saying is that if you choose to make a comparison between an OTP and a custom, then you must compare on the differences, and the differences are not the components (as options and customisation can give you those)... the differences relate to the frame and the way in which it came about. And when you do that, you have to concede that they are relatively incomparable for they exist for different reasons/audiences/markets.

in summary:

• can an OTP bike ever compare to a custom-built frame? No, because they won't be built to fit you and you alone, and they lack the air of craftsmanship (which is nice).
  
• can an OTP bike ever compare to a customised bike with personally selected components? Yes, if the components and frame are well-specced then a very nice bike can be had OTP.
  
• do OTP bikes potentially provide a good quality bike at reasonable prices? Yes, absolutely.
  
• is it fun to customise your bike with components you have chosen yourself? Yes.
  
  

i don't understand the suggestion that OTP bikes might one day achieve the same "level" as customised bikes. there is no inherent difference between the quality of an OTP bike and a (non-custom) frame that you've bought and added components to yourself. the quality of the frame and components depends on how much you spend, but that's about it. the difference is the personal touch, not the quality (at equivalent price). it's not uncommon for someone to put together a shit bike themselves, so i reckon that in many cases it's better to defer to the experience of the OTP manufacturer, who is a professional and has probably been doing this sort of thing for much longer than some of us.

I took GA2G as meaning a customised bike and not a custom-made frame, then the bike-couture-mod-squad start wading in... Fahckin' cuntz... ;]
Isn't a custom Mercian frame the same price as an OTP Mercian frame? I believe it is, you just have to wait... I really want one, fully vintage Campag Pista equipped... I can dream... And a custom Keirin frame, 100% NJS... Still dreamin'...
It's only a bike at the end of the day...
Oh, and I neeeeeed a MIB DS NOS Raleigh Lizard...