Are OTPs approaching custom standards?

Different fish.

well i bought enough ingredients for thee people to be fair:

herb salad (2 bags)
2 long red peppers (blackened and skinned)
punnet of cherry tomatoes
big-ish pack free range chicken fillets (grilled with lemon and pepper)
roquefort cheese
walnuts
red onion
little bit of dressing of olive oil and balsamic

i may have bought a few basics as well like bread and milk but i distinctly remember thinking "fuck me. that's a £9 salad!"

it was good though.

i tend to agree with scott in that it's nice to be able to buy like that. but most of us can't afford to go down that route all the time. i certainly can't anyway. a lot of times cost and urgency (like i need a bike now!) play a big part. luckily there is a pretty broad range of OTP bikes to suit most needs and pockets these days. i bought a genesis flyer last year which has done fine for me but i'm doubt my next bike will be OTP. i won't say i'll never buy OTP again. needs change man.

Rapha, OTPs, Spotted. Great, I can log off and go home now.

shakes head

People are missing the whole point of custom anything if they choose it based solely on performance.
It isn't just about the performance...the paint...the features...the customisation.
People like to know that the product they have just bought, be it a frame, a bag, a suit, whatever, has been made just for them by somebody who lives and breathes what they do....somebody who is as passionate about what they create as you are about what you ride or wear.
It's nice to be able to picture somebody standing there covered in metal shavings or little bits of fluffy cotton....working with meticulous attention to detail...sipping tea inbetween welds or seams....it's nice to be able to talk one to one about what you want....nice to be able shake the persons hand when you pick the end result up from them.
You just don't get that same warm feeling inside from buying a bike or bag that has been made on some production line in some far off country.
Maybe i'm wrong and just get too caught up in the whole process....but i just love knowing that the thing i'm buying has been made from start to finish by a human being...just like me.
THAT is one of the biggest appeals of going custom for me...not just the performance of the finished product.

Have you read 'Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance'? ;)

This book certainly influenced my approach to bike building (amongst other things). I have tried to include as many handmade components as possible, on my bike. The best bit for me, was spending several hours stitching on the Elk-hide bar covering. It wont effect performance but it does (for me) illustrate the hand-made nature of the bike.

Its all about injecting some care.

Have you read 'Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance'? ;)

This book certainly influenced my approach to bike building (amongst other things). I have tried to include as many handmade components as possible. The best bit for me, was spending several hours stitching on the Elk-hide bar covering. It wont effect performance but it does (for me) illustrate the hand-made nature of the bike.

Its all about injecting some care.

Have you read '[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Zinn-Art-Road-Bike-Maintenance/dp/1931382697/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232544125&sr=8-1"]Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance[/ame]?' I learned a lot from that book (no joke).

Yep, I really like the fact that you can use it as a reference book, yet it reads cover to cover quite well too.
Nice hand drawn illustrations.

OTP can never be custom.

It can all be reduced to this:
OTP frames are made to fit slices of the average market.
Custom frames are made to fit individuals.

That's it.

No more, no less.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/urban/district/district/

what do people think of this ting?

Customs are made to fit into whatever clique you want to be accepted by.

FACT.

I finished tweaking my newest bike today - a completely customized '06 langster (got the frame from turd furgurson over the weekend). It's amazing.

I'm a total convert - they're stiff, light, fast... had the most awesome ride just now.

My point being that the basis of even the most scoffed at OTP is an excellent frameset with tight clearances and a pretty good pedigree.

I finished tweaking my newest bike today - a completely customized '06 langster (got the frame from turd furgurson over the weekend). It's amazing.

You took the frame apart and re-constructed it to a geometry designed just for you?

Well done.

Yep, I really like the fact that you can use it as a reference book, yet it reads cover to cover quite well too.
Nice hand drawn illustrations.

I left mine behind when I moved over here. I miss it...

You took the frame apart and re-constructed it to a geometry designed just for you?

Well done.
VB, I think you're being purposefully disingenuous. An OTP bike is based on the spec of the designer and the company's accountants. That said, a fit can be made to suit most people. The best example of this is Giant's bikes and their frames.

For example, the sizing of some of their frames is almost bewildering. Their Omnium track frame has such huge jumps between sizes, it is obvious that for some people, getting this to fit would involve some serious compromises.

Can we then say that the boffins at Giant don't know anyhing about sizing or fit on bikes? Thats a stretch for anyone to assume. Therefore maybe compromising in frame fit and angles is an over-rated premise? Its not my argument, its Giants. They don't have to say it. Their frames are doing that for them.

IMO, a custom bike will probably be the closest possible anyone can get to a perfect fit for the owner. But for the great unwashed public, compromises will have to be made with any OTP. Unless they fit it perfectly by lucky coincidence.

OTP can never be custom.

It can all be reduced to this:
OTP frames are made to fit slices of the average market.
Custom frames are made to fit individuals.

That's it.

No more, no less.

Question (and I'm being serious): are there any frame builders who will build you a frame to your EXACT specifications, based on your size? All the frame builders I've seen build frames using standardised tube lengths (i.e. 24" 24.5" etc). Is it actually possible to have a frame built using, say, Reynolds 631 tubing with a seat tube of 25.1" ?

Different fish.

Thread killer! :]

Another thing; some OTPs are costing close to what a custom bike can cost. If thats the case, I'd recommend Custom-Made over OTP, if the prices are relatively close.

Still, examine both options.

I will buy more OTPs, because some of them are beautiful now, but I aspire to Custom-Made.

Interesting, that I prefer my cheaper Bowery to my Capo, and probably because I've personalised my Bowery more.

VB, I think you're being purposefully disingenuous.

I wasn't seeking to be.

What is custom about a custom?

Is it the colour or finish? Nope, definitely not that.

Is it a case of having options to choose some components? Not really, it goes deeper than that. An OTP road bike can come in configurations that offer various steps in groupset, this level of choice does not make it a custom.

So what is it? A custom road bike still has an OTP groupset, still has an OTP saddle... OTP meaning mass manufactured and the same this time as last... the Fizik Ariane saddle on a OTP Cannondale road bike is the same as Fizik Ariane saddle on my Serotta or Bob Jackson... the latter two both custom.

So what is custom? Well it's the frame, that the frame has been manufactured to offer the geometry and properties asked of it by the owner. This is of particular importance if you have any medical condition that might be exacerbated by cycling, or if you wish to gain more power, or tailor the bike to a very specific purpose (i.e. pursuit cycling, time trials, etc). The key word here is tailor.

You can change the feel and look of a bike by changing components. But components are generally mass manufactured. And besides, do you really think that adding a hand-made stem to a Charge Plug makes that a custom bike? Of course not.

What defines a custom bike is the frame. That the geometry, the materials, the properties created through those things... suit just one person. That is, the whole frame is tailored to that individual and no-one else.

And if that is what makes a custom, then can a bike that is mass produced and made for many individuals ever be compared to a custom? No, not really... they are not the same.

When you try an example of a custom bike from Serotta, IF, Moots, etc. They have test machines, and pretty much the very first thing you are told is, "Don't worry if it's not quite right... this is not YOUR bike, YOUR bike will be made for you and you alone. The most important thing is for you to be honest about your needs because we will make the frame for you and no-one else.".

And there we are... could an OTP ever "approach" a custom? No. Not at all. Even if the manufacturer offered hundreds of size variations, these would still be mass manufactured and not made for you. The quality of OTPs can improve, but they cannot by definition fulfil the reason that people go custom.

Question (and I'm being serious): are there any frame builders who will build you a frame to your EXACT specifications, based on your size? All the frame builders I've seen build frames using standardised tube lengths (i.e. 24" 24.5" etc). Is it actually possible to have a frame built using, say, Reynolds 631 tubing with a seat tube of 25.1" ?

Yes.

If you want this, you can get it. You'll pay for it, but you can definitely get it.

@vboy - semantic difference ahoy!
It's like when someone says they have just finished building a bike, when all they did was assemble it.
@GA2G - The bikes you can compare OTPs to are customised, but not custom-made.

Yes.

If you want this, you can get it. You'll pay for it, but you can definitely get it.

Good to know! That is my aim, long-term. I will one day have a bike built EXACTLY for my dimensions. At 6'6" it is difficult to find an exact fit.

Good to know! That is my aim, long-term. I will one day have a bike built EXACTLY for my dimensions. At 6'6" it is difficult to find an exact fit.

Zinn prides himself in custom bikes for tall people.

http://www.zinncycles.com/index.php

Look under the headers and you'll see "Project Big Custom Series". He even makes full suspension custom MTB's for tall people.

I'm with prav and VB on this one. The term custom gets batted around in the wrong context regularly.

A custom whatever is something tailored to you wants needs specifications.

Otherwise it's customised / personalised.

are condor SS/Fixed otp's though?.. granted they can be but once you're there talking to the guys, I for one upgrade/alter the shit out of it so it's a bike that you've chosen rather than a trad otp?

just a thought?

Must say that the MASI is a real nice bike to ride, although i'm not keen on the cable guides that are on it, despite not being sold with a rear brake. Easily remedied tho.... Nice nonetheless.