South London Beers: Reboot - Last Thursday of the Month at The Prince Regent, Herne Hill, SE24

Well, I imagine some would try to avoid all products that involve animal exploitation, such as leather and glues derived from bones.

Pista don't get into one about Vegans, please. They are less angry than you, so you'll always come out worse.... cos of all that death karma in your diet, man.

So a vegan cant eat ANY animal products?

Check Nhatt's post above. Being vegan is more of an aspiration than a 100% absolutely fully realistic goal. There are so many animal products in everything that you can either become completely self-sufficient or go mad trying to check everything that's pre-produced. For instance, last night I ate some chocolate chip cookies which had a warning on them that they may contain traces of milk owing to being produced in the same factory as dairy products. That's good enough for me--there weren't any animal-derived ingredients in the recipe. No need to go to extremes of purity.

So... say Oliver was in a desert and he had no water and was about to die of dehydration, would he not be allowed to drink his own wee?

EDIT: Bah! Beaten by a considered and moderate view.

Some vegans are wracked with paroxysms of guilt due to their ruthless exploitation of the bacterial fauna in their own small intestine.

Anyway

http://www.londonfgss.com/thread34013.html

No. The definition of Vegan is someone who doesn't eat any animal products.
(why do I feel like a just walked into a trap...)

So... say Oliver was in a desert and he had no water and was about to die of dehydration, would he not be allowed to drink his own wee?

Of course I would be, and depending on how desperate I was, I probably would so that.

If I was in the Arctic and about to die, I would probably club a seal and eat its raw meat to survive. That wouldn't be right, but in that situation I'd probably still do it. It all depends on how desperate you are. In a comfortable and well-off society, you have time and energy to live right. If you're struggling for survival, you couldn't.

Edit: Just saw your edit.

So, Nhatt... if you were in a desert and he had no water... ah, forget it.

EDIT: AGAIN!

If I was in the Arctic and about to die, I would probably club a seal and eat its raw meat to survive.

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Well, I imagine some would try to avoid all products that involve animal exploitation, such as leather and glues derived from bones.

Pista don't get into one about Vegans, please. They are less angry than you, so you'll always come out worse.... cos of all that death karma in your diet, man.

I resent the fact that you have assumed that because of my diet I can't make as big an ass out of myself.

I'll have you know I am one angry vegan.

No. The definition of Vegan is someone who doesn't eat any animal products.
(why do I feel like a just walked into a trap...)

Just 'eat' though. Thought it was more than that, leather, wool etc...

Just 'eat' though. Thought it was more than that, leather, wool etc...

Yes, Nhatt stated the definition of a nutritional vegan.

Shouldn't you be discussing veganism in that lovely new Vegan Thread, Graham? Tut, tut. You must have heard about it.

Indeed, I suppose consume would be a better word?
But then we get into the people who are "freegan" who are happy to eat/drink/have whatever, as long as they didn't contribute money to it. I feel this way about leather, I would never buy it, but I feel like it would be wasteful to get rid of the belt that has been serving me well for the last ten years.

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Wimp.

Wimp.

Ah, was there content to that post? I didn't see it.

Methinks Balki originally called you a name.

I've heard that some people have rules where they allow themselves to eat some foods containing animal products so long as it's only a tiny percent...does this still make them vegans?

I like the vegans.

What if they use make-up that may have been used on monkeys or beagles?

...or sit in a car that has leather seats

It's interesting to look at the language as the vegans will tell you that any relationship we have with a food animal is abusive or exploitative- emotive words that have an immediate impact.

However the situation is similar to that of a Maid of All work- a Victorian position where the salary was often "All found", meaning bed, board and living expenses such as clothing and so forth.

i.e. it is not exploitation as the animal is compensated- with it's life, board, vetinary attention and so forth, and most crucially the ability to have progeny that continue it's line into the future.

That it is slaughtered and eaten at a point in it's life is part of the implicit contract between farmer and animal, part of the terms of payment if you will for the life that it has led up until that point.

I think that you could make a very strong argument for it being immoral not to eat an animal that had been raised and slaughtered specifically for food.

Balki-

Nope, anything obtained from or by an animal is considered to be abusive of the animal.

Not accurate. For instance, human breast milk for babies is obviously fine. Also, veganism is actually not in the first instance about wishing to avoid suffering of animals. That's obviously an important aspect, but as the Vegan Society says, it's for the benefit of people, animals, and the environment. A very comprehensive vision, but one that among other things relies on the clear conviction that animal products aren't actually very beneficial to people, both for ethical and nutritional reasons, which is the primary consideration. For some people, animal suffering is the most important factor, but not for me, for instance.

How this works with eating crops planted in furrow tilled by an ox drawn plow I do not know- I presume that is verboten also.

Another extreme consideration--there could well be circumstances where that method of farming would be sensible to adopt. In much of the world, we have machinery to do the job, of course, but more mechanisation also leads to more and more intensive farming. For me, the main issue is actually why the ox is an ox in the first place.

Ideally, we'd avoid making animals work for us, but, quite frankly, while billions of animals die every year, e.g. billions of newly-hatched male chicks are gassed or decapitated on their first day of life because they don't lay eggs, to me that's a very minor consideration that I don't spend a lot of time worrying about.

Vegan yoghurt- the mind boggles, and the stomach rebels.

Sojade Blueberry isn't too bad, but I don't like Provamel. As with all of these substitute products, it'll get better in time, just as vegan ice cream is already there.

What if they use make-up that may have been used on monkeys or beagles?

There was a funny stand-up routine about it being pointless testing cosmetics on rabbits anyway, 'cos they're really cute already - they should be tested on really ugly animals instead...

i.e. it is not exploitation as the animal is compensated- with it's life, board, vetinary attention and so forth, and most crucially the ability to have progeny that continue it's line into the future.

What's the big deal about the extinction of a species? Who suffers?