Are OTPs approaching custom standards?

I took GA2G as meaning a customised bike and not a custom-made frame

me too, which is why i'm a bit confused with the suggestion that OTP's are "nearly as good" as customised bikes.

that progressive bike is really weird lookin.

Frame looks the same geometry as a archie wilkinson speedway bike. Then its got the fat chainring and ye olde looking brown brooks etc. Probably ok ridewise, but aesthetically challenged for sure.

Customs are made to fit into whatever clique you want to be accepted by.
FACT.

Bollocks, my Jackson was built for me not a clique

Question (and I'm being serious): are there any frame builders who will build you a frame to your EXACT specifications, based on your size? All the frame builders I've seen build frames using standardised tube lengths (i.e. 24" 24.5" etc). Is it actually possible to have a frame built using, say, Reynolds 631 tubing with a seat tube of 25.1" ?

Yes, of course.

Here's a question?

If someone is fitted for a custom-made bike, will that fitting be right for them 20 years later?

I've been lucky. The frame I had built for me when I was in my mid to late twenties, still (at the age of 47) feels better than any other bike I ride.

I'm not sure anyone is looking down on OTP riders, ...
All I'm saying is that if you choose to make a comparison between an OTP and a custom, then you must compare on the differences, and the differences are not the components ... the differences relate to the frame and the way in which it came about.

+1. While having my Jackson restored I rode a Fuji OTP. It was a perfectly adequate bike, but the difference I noticed when the BJ was finished was indescribable.

There is no question of 'approaching' when one compares an half-decent OTP and some of my shoddy bikes.
My post above was me just trying to keep on track with what GA1G intended.
I don't agree that fashioning a hierarchy of products is *always *productive. *cough*consumerist whorescough
People will spend what they want to and can afford; and if it's not suitable for their needs?
That fact will eventually become apparent...
Are we talking about 'approaching' in terms of credibility?

Prav, I've just read your original post, and agree with it completely. I've re-read your recent post (above) 3 times, and I still can't work out what you're trying to say.

Are OTPs approaching custom standards?

Considering 50% of all the work I have done mechanically has been a bodge for one reason or another... I Hope they are not approaching my custom build standards ;-).

But seriously, I have to agree with philjay, I don't really know what is wrong with a langster/bowery/fillmore if it gets you from A to B. Some of the OTP that are around about £800+, are bloody nice looking bikes, especially the blackjack.

One thing that was positive from building myself however was that I know how to put a bike together, granted it probably not the best build ever, but it works and I will do it better next time.

I don't really know what is wrong with a langster/bowery/fillmore if it gets you from A to B. Some of the OTP that are around about £800+, are bloody nice looking bikes, especially the blackjack ...... and I will do it better next time.

There is nothing wrong with a bike (or any other machine) that gets you from A to B.
Given the choice between Custom Jackson or OTP Fuji? I know which I'll choose every time.

There is nothing wrong with a bike (or any other machine) that gets you from A to B.
Given the choice between Custom Jackson or OTP Fuji? I know which I'll choose every time.

money no object, then shityeah!

Luckily, or unluckily as it may be, my original post's title was not as clear as I hoped for.
Originally it had been "Are OTPs approaching CUSTOM standards?".....the word custom had been in capitals.

I had originally meant Custom-Made, ie, a bike built up from buying a custom frame, then sourcing individual parts to suit the owner. However, due to the lack of clarity in my meaning, and that the capitalized Custom having been changed (not by me) to lower-case, my question was answered in 2 ways. Both regarding customised OTPs (which was not my question, though interesting, because of the change to the original sale's rebirth) and Custom-Made bikes.

A lot of the OTP bikes are designed for a purpose. If you are sponsored by Charge bikes, then you ride a Charge bike that they will most probably give you for free. I think the seat height, crank lenth, bar size, and stem size give you enough variables to be able to make it fit you fine.
If you look at BMX's then you'll see that maybe 0.5% of riders have custom frames because there are enough frames out there that provide the right ride for you. Almost every BMX frame you can buy will come in a range of sizes that vary upto 3" in difference. Surely, with the amount of road/track frames out there, there is one that fits you well enough that you don't need to have a custom one made.
IMO the reason more people don't have custom frames is because of $$$. I know I can't afford it, but would I really notice the difference if I did? I ride my Peugeot conversion and as soon as I try somebody else's OTP it feels weird, not because it isn't custom, but because it is a completely different bike.
If I bought an OTP Fuji Track tomorrow I could then customise it. This would entail buying different parts to replace the standard ones. This would be custom to me because I have selected what I want and put it together. Almost nothing is 'original' anymore, you just make a new mix/combination of things to make a new whole.
Even OCC custom choppers use standard frames half the time, does this mean they're not making custom bikes half the time?
I really like the idea of having a completely custom bike where every part has been made by some bloke in a shed in Bedfordshire with all his love and full attention going into every single part, but not many people can afford this and if they could it would be seen as a complete waste of money when there are so many parts you don't need to have custom made. This raises another question:

If you want to call you bike 'custom' do you need to have every single part custom made for you or is it OK to just have the frame custom made and then add OTP parts onto it?

I personally really like certain frames I see and would then just build onto that to get a bike that I want. This also works in favour of my lesser money issue. It means that I can buy an OTP bike that I can ride from the moment I buy it and can slowly change parts as I can afford them.

This is going to make me sound very thick and I apologise in advance, but the only time I have ever heard OTP is on-time performance in a work place. OTP in reference to bicycles is still something I haven't heard. I have seen it on here but I have yet to figure out what it means =x anyone care to fill me in...without the sarcasm if you can at all stand it. I know it can be hard.

OTP = Off The Peg = Off a production line.....so to speak.

Which in turn, is the opposite of Custom Made.

But there is the obvious customization of any bike, even OTPs.

Its the duscussion of merits of each that's being dealt with herein.

Off The Peg. ie ready to ride

Can I suggest something like CB (custom built to your size, specs etc.)
and HB (Home built from OTP frame and components).

We seem to be switching between the two and its giving me a headache :(

My bike comes under the HB category, and is most likely of lower quality than a equivalent OTP. This is because it was put together by a hammer swinging chemist and not a bike mechanic. Add to that the fact that I've spent £1k putting together a bike worth about 8-900, and the whole venture seems hugely unprofitable.

I've learnt loads though, and enjoyed every minute of the process. The bike certainly was'nt put together with any great degree of skill, but I definitly put a lot of care into it.

pret-a-porter

OTP = Off The Peg = Off a production line.....so to speak.

Which in turn, is the opposite of Custom Made.

But there is the obvious customization of any bike, even OTPs.

Its the duscussion of merits of each that's being dealt with herein.

thank you very much =)

There's a brown langster on my commute and I scoff at it every time it overtakes me.

As for the orignal question, I'd say the answer is yes... as the number of OTP grows so the number of people that really need a custom frame to get what they want decreases (unless they are all building the same things?!)... as every point of contact with a bike is customisable, so surely the only difference in frames is really balance and turning circles?

I ride the frame that my dad rode, he's 4 inches shorter than me...

Prav... I've re-read your recent post (above) 3 times, and I still can't work out what you're trying to say.

Ha!
My original post was very, very long before I chopped it.
I covered topics such as: custom framebuilding; levels of geekery; comparison to other snobbish hobbies (golf, fishing); what I believed GA2G actually meant to ask; I tried to draw a line under the tangential direction that I thought the thread was taking; I had a little dig at OP for trying to rank everything; and I ended up questioning the thread topic and suggesting a controversial yet equally pointless slant on it.

Ha!
I had a little dig at OP for trying to rank everything

Prav, I don't try to rank everything. Maybe it appears so, but in truth, its the opposite.

I believe in freedom of choice, and freedom of expression.

What some (not implying you btw) fail to realise, is that I hardly take sides, and I refuse to follow a trend, unless by happy happenstance, it coincides with mine also.

I absolutely love some OTPs, but some (maybe many) are plain nasty. That said, I aspire to some bikes that will never appear as OTPs either.

Just because I question things, doesn't mean I'm trying to provoke (as Tynan said first).

Hipsters, of which I will never be one (c'mon, be honest, just look at me), may disagree with what I say. But I think its fair to comment on how classy some OTPs are becoming, and how far away others are......to the standard of classy Custom-Made bikes.

The way I see it, its the Masi Speciale Ltd Edition versus the Tommasini Tecno Track.

The Masi is possibly excellent, but the Tomassini, if used as a starting point, is better.

Maybe next year, some OTPs might be even closer. Maybe even this year.

There might well be no performance benefit, but it sure makes me appreciate the bike more.

cos of what you spent on it. If you were to do a pepsi/coke challenge ie you didn't know which was custom and which was OTP would you really know the difference (and I dont mean any bog-standard otp but one that is as close a match to your measurements as possible)?

cos of what you spent on it. If you were to do a pepsi/coke challenge ie you didn't know which was custom and which was OTP would you really know the difference (and I dont mean any bog-standard otp but one that is as close a match to your measurements as possible)?

Totally agree. Its all in my mind, but as long as I perceive it as good, thats fine by me ;)

You took the frame apart and re-constructed it to a geometry designed just for you?

Well done.

No, but i also only paid £50 for it (turd owes me electricity money :). I'm not convinced spending 10 times this amount will produce a noticeable difference in the quality of the fit.

I took GA2G's use of the word 'custom' to refer to a bicycle that had been bought in parts and assembled by the rider, rather than an entirely custom built frame, which is a frivolity I can neither afford nor see the point in.

I took GA2G as meaning a customised bike and not a custom-made frame, then the bike-couture-mod-squad start wading in... Fahckin' cuntz... ;]
Isn't a custom Mercian frame the same price as an OTP Mercian frame? I believe it is, you just have to wait... I really want one, fully vintage Campag Pista equipped... I can dream... And a custom Keirin frame, 100% NJS... Still dreamin'...
It's only a bike at the end of the day...
Oh, and I neeeeeed a MIB DS NOS Raleigh Lizard...

that's the shit i'm talking about teenslain. Take me back to 92.

Putting the issue of bespoke frame builds to the side, OTP s/s and fixed bikes are never going to get as popular or as high end as OTP geared road bikes due to the fact that it is far easier for average joe to buy the parts for and assemble his/her own 'custom' ss/fg. There are a lot less components to choose and ensure compatibility between. If you are building a ss/fg you have 1 gear ratio to concern yourself with not 30, you dont have to worry that your shifters have the same activation ratio as your mechs or that your front mech has the correct cage size for your chainrings. If you run a brake its prob gonna be a front brake and the cable routing isn't exactly difficult on that whereas on a geared road bike you'd have 4 cable to route, some of them under bar tape and poss thru frame tubes.
I think if you have made the choice to ride a ss of fg then you are likely to have a bit more in depth relationship with your bike than a high end road bike buyer might have and so you will be more likely to take the time and effort to assemble your own bike.
Plus fashion is a big part of the fixed scene (no matter how much you all deny it it is) so buyers are less likely to be happy with the colour coordinating or particular component choices on an OTP bike.

OTPs get the job done, and get the unwashed onto one gear.
I think you're missing the point here. Who gives a shit what people that they don't know choose to ride. Someone else choosing to ride fixed, SS, offroad, 20" wheel trials, TT and whatever else have no bearing on us riding our bikes.

I couldn't give a damn if you have an OTP which you bought third hand and VB has a custom serotta. They are your bikes, you ride them. It's you who has to live with them and gain enjoyment from them. I have my own bikes which I love to pieces, they all suit me perfectly and are made from scratch with my choices of components, assembled by me and then ridden by me.

Are off the pegs approaching custom bikes. The answer is no whether you accept custom to mean a custom made frame or a customised bike built from a frame and the owners selection of components. The reason is thus;

custom
*adjective*1. made according to the specifications of an individual [syn: custom-made] [ant: ready-made]

Off the peg bikes are made to the specification of a company, the only choice an end user has is whether to purchase one or not.
If you buy and then upgrade a OTP bike and change some or all of the parts you are no longer riding an OTP. You are riding a customised bike based on a OTP frame.

^ The voice of raisons