#blacklivesmatter racism is a human problem

Regarding your idea of free higher education for black kids, there is something I often end up repeating when equality comes up. Equality doesn’t mean doing exactly the same thing for everybody. Different people need different things to reach the same endpoint. I think true equality is making sure different people have the opportunities or things they need to get there.

yeah, equity before equality.

David Lammy was excellent on R4 this morning. No more commissions / reviews get on with implementing the many already published

I also think that people mistake racism for recognition of privilege. And then get offended by being called out on it.

In a similar vein I remember choosing to walk around HCM city in Vietnam and being constantly accosted by taxi drivers because being white was a good signifier for being (relatively) wealthy, and so they assumed I would want a ride. It was annoying for me, but I could understand why they would do it.

I can think of two acts that I think were genuinely racist, one also in Vietnam where my friend took me to see her Grandparents, who asked in ignorance if I bleached my arm hair (they had, as far as I know never seen someone with blonde arm hair), and a more recent stereotyping where a waiter in India repeatedly refused to serve me a dish because he was certain it was too hot (spicy) and I should order something else (I didn't and it wasn't).

Both are so abnormal, that I could likewise laugh them off, and certainly don't make me think that I was hated for my skin colour.

Equality is the same idea as meritocracy (or IMO the free market), a useful tool for those with privilege and power to maintain the status quo whilst arguing that they are unbiased

Private schooling is untaxed. Some revenue could be gathered there, for better schooling for all.

I agree to a point about education, but this shouldn’t be just for black kids, we have many impoverished right now, if we are going to see changes then it should be about social mobility for everyone. Whether it’s an inner city black kid, or white kid from a northern town with no job prospects, who ends up in the armed forces or police force with prejudice instilled from a young age. That along with a migrant workforce that does the jobs few Brits want such as picking fruit, cleaning offices, work for the NHS..

Where did I read
clap for us on Thursday, deport us on Friday

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Are either of those occurrences racism though? It depends on whether your definition is simply "being treated differently or with prejudice because of perceived ethnicity" or whether it also involves a power dynamic, underlying belief in superiority, or negative discrimination.
I don't think the first instance is racism even with its mildest definition - if they never met anyone blond before then it's a fairly logical if slightly personal question. The second - sure it's based on stereotype and yes it was a form of discrimination although not particularly negative. The waiter maybe didn't want you to have a bad experience.

it could do without the sigh

No.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race

Entitled assholes really need to hear how tedious and exhausting their entitled attitudes are.

Part of the challenge is I think that these arguments come from an emotional place of a feeling of loss and attack.

Totally agree with this, especially with older people who have few things they hold dear. Kind of want to write more about my dad but feel like it's too much personal information.

In a similar vein I remember choosing to walk around HCM city in Vietnam and being constantly accosted by taxi drivers because being white was a good signifier for being (relatively) wealthy, and so they assumed I would want a ride. It was annoying for me, but I could understand why they would do it.

The same psychology is at play when a Cambridgeshire Police officer stops a driver for being black. In the cop’s mind, he’s just filtering for out-of-town individuals. You were profiled. Obviously the context is different and important.

Everyone's an asshole to some degree and most on the forum are entitled ones too but if someone's on this thread it means they're open to the idea of learning. Hopefully this thread is a place where we can be not afraid of saying stupid things or making mistakes. And also a place where we can take on the load of educating and yes encouraging. I think it's important and valuable to have a place for that and to do that.

I guess the point I was making was it's hard to argue against with out his lived experience.
I'm not saying he thinking anti white racism is as big other types of racism.

Edit: I suppose the distinction here is "is the harm caused by the act itself, or the power dynamic/imbalance between the two people" to which I have no answer, and would appreciate other peoples input

(and to be clear, my issue with the waiter was that he repeatedly ignored my response, that "no, really I like hot food", rather than the inital statement which is valid in terms of trying to ensure a guest has a good experience)

Second edit: Others have pointed out that the necessity for negative discrimination is useful since it focuses on harm done, rather than bias, which everyone has to a lesser or greater extent. Will leave my initial thoughts below so the replies still make sense

genuinely don't think that racism needs a negative discrimination; my feeling is that it encompasses any distinction based primarily on skin colour (or other signifiers of race) because otherwise it opens the door to people using ignorance or arguing good intentions to defend their biases, rather than having to face them and potentially change

It might be a more mild version, but I still think its relevant - however I'm open to people saying this is wrong.

Everyone's an asshole to some degree and most on the forum are entitled ones too but if someone's on this thread it means they're open to the idea of learning.

I'm sure, but I'm a little confused you need to say that because I wasn't having a go at anybody on this thread. I was just explaining why the sigh in that cartoon is appropriate.

Yep, good point. I hadn’t thought about it in exactly those term, but that seems correct to me.

Thanks for the recommends on this -- listened over the weekend and thought it was excellent.

abolition of slavery... taunt in school

This is one of the frustrations about people referencing erasing history. The lobby for abolition had many elements, including for e.g. the wealth advantage Haiti brought France in a world (as you note) where Britain was benefiting from industrialization. The Black Jacobins by C. L. R. James is great for discussing points like these and the strategic reasons for pushing abolition. While I believe topics such as the Haitian revolution should be taught, I get why teaching history in school is focused on the host country and it's role - it's natural. What isn't, is erasing all the wider factors which directly involve the host country.

@branwen

I genuinely don't think that racism needs a negative discrimination;

FYI that's an opinion that now runs counter to the norm in academia and among the main thought leaders on the subject.

Also just to explain why I'm so preoccupied with the message and discussion, in case anyone thinks I'm trying to downplay or justify anything, it's probably also worth stating one of my biases: - I've been heavily influenced working next to a salesperson and his team who's bible was Pitch Anything coupled with later discussing the Fisherprice science contained within with a Dr working in psychiatry.

I genuinely don't think that racism needs a negative discrimination;

FYI that's an opinion that now runs counter to the norm in academia and among the main thought leaders on the subject.

Is that based on something like this; so its useless to call out racism since everyone is inherently racist and instead you have to specifically change/challenge the negative discrimination?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/05/racist-racism-racially-white-ethnic-minorities

Is there anyone / anything you would recommend reading on it

Erasing history (again you guessed it).

The joke about the "Erasing history" claim is that most people had never heard of these bastards before their statues were pulled down. UK cities and towns are full of statues to people almost nobody remembers. People walk past those statues every day and never think about them, so they clearly don't do anything to preserve history.

Most Brits were quite happy to have collectively erased awkward history from their memories. It's history being unerased that they don't like.

Yes, similar to that. But because (as I understand it) it comes from sociology, and one of the reasons power is essential is because without it, the prejudiced is effectively irrelevant from a societal pov.

I was introduced to it from listening to a female sociology(?) professor from SOAS referencing it in a discussion about something on R4 a few years ago. So unfortunately I don't have any helpful references. Maybe someone else does?

The issue with bringing the idea up in regular chats, is that it's not what other people mean - a bit like a bank "giving you a mortgage". But in this space I thought it was worth mentioning.

I was introduced to it from listening to a female sociology(?) professor from SOAS referencing it in a discussion about something on R4 a few years ago.

Google to the rescue, possibly.

https://blogs.soas.ac.uk/decolonisingsoas/2019/02/28/bbc-radio-4-i-cant-be-racist/

leading to this. I'll give it a listen certainly

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002rkq

But in this space I thought it was worth mentioning.

Absolutely, this is all about being better people so any pointers towards that or failings/blindspots are helpful. Thanks

Am not sure what the right word is, there is a man in the room or or nearby helping such as bring drinks and snack, while cleaning and tidying behind you. Also I thought they were locals, but do not know for sure as I'm not sure who the local population were as I only met white europeans just working there. This was the mid 1980's.

Private schools are usually have charitable status, and from what I remember school fees can come with tax relief..or some tax incentive.

Was Eton started as a free school to poor people.

No tax relief for parents paying school fees. There have been attempts where a charity was set up to pay the fees. HMRC took a dim view.

Edit to add.. Private schools' charitable status allows them to escape business rates