#blacklivesmatter racism is a human problem

Having spent a few days with an Italian family member that likes a black shirt and claims to be a socialist not sure what humour is.

But hey at least you are not trying to convert the godless heathens (in africa, asia and south america) to christianity.

If you read up about the Kenya land and freedom army also known as the mau mau uprising and the naziesque treatment by the British, to the point that even in the late 50's britain was committing similar war crimes as the nazis. That is only 70 years ago.

https://youtu.be/vmgxtcbc4iU

This podcast is difficult to hear. It does question some fundamental ideas core to the protests.

It’s appears very US specific. I wonder if people believe it tracks our own situation at all?

Thank you for posting the thread, racism is such a difficult subject to discuss for many reasons. Personally I'm not great at posting long posts online though have been having more open ended discussions with my friends.

Hopefully lessons will be learned and the world can have some eventual positive movement forward.

Yesterday's racist/hooligan "protests" were an absolutely shameful example of the worst of Britain, I'm not sure if we'll ever get through to those people but I feel like the rest of the population might be waking up.

Disappointing fruitless discussion today with a bigoted relative. A good lesson in preparing for such discussions better.

One thing that might be useful to share the main issues they had, and where the conversation got stuck:

1. Statues. Statues. Statues. This has clearly become a very effective distraction.
   
2. Lack of democratic process (statues again).
   
3. Erasing history (again you guessed it).
   
   

Tl;Dr was "I don't like the way they've gone about it."

Also a good lesson in when to have these sorts of discussions.

Disappointing fruitless discussion today with a bigoted relative.

I got this response last week on WhatsApp family and close friends group chat ‘why are you so hostile??!?!’ when I posted pro BLM stuff, which is code for;

‘we rescued you from a life in a children’s home in 1975, so shut the fuck up’
‘We don’t recognise your trauma‘
‘We don’t respect your culture, heritage or point of view’
‘we will remain a white working class family’
‘We resent that you made something of your life when you left the care system’
‘We will remain ignorant and intolerant‘
‘We resent being called entitled or privileged’

Of course I owe my foster family a lot back in 1975, but I believe that prejudice and racial indifference is difficult to shake off after decades of neglect in poor white minority neighbourhoods seething with resentment.

I’m not making excuses for them, but it’s a world away from where I want to be.

Had the exact same with my dad, who I don't consider racist and has worked around the world, with many different people of differing skin colour.

His statement that white men are hated around the world and there is a lot of racism against whites people is hard to argue against but it's not the point.

is this "awkward conversations with dads who may or may not be racist" day? (cos me too - and he isn't even white)

He also didn't like it when I said that I couldn't give a fuck about Churchill.

Fortunately this wasn't my dad. Or maybe unfortunately, as at least I know how to debate his points and how far I can go without causing an issue.

@mi7rennie - one way to counter that point is to go into the idea that racism is power + prejudice. The challenge with that is that it's more of an academic point to which someone can say, "csb I don't agree with your definition and neither would the man in the street".

@almac68

We resent being called entitled or privileged

is a hard point to counter productively imo, as even very fortunate people tend not to recognize it. It immediately delegitimatizes any struggles they may feel they have. As a definition or concept I think it's a great word. As a practical word to use with people who's mind you're trying to change, I feel it's problematic.

Idk what a better approach is so would be keen to hear what others approaches have been.

Statues. Statues. Statues. This has clearly become a very effective distraction.

Well, the Bristol statue was really just a kind of starting-gun. It was an event that broke the mould of how these things usually happen, but you don't keep firing the starting-gun throughout the race, is how I'd put it.

Lack of democratic process (statues again).

Sometimes in politics, you need someone to cut the proverbial Gordian knot; in fact, this happens in politics all the time, although mostly in repressive and negative ways. If a powerless rabble does it, it's pretty startling, and no more right or wrong than when those in power do it, but it can be pretty inspiring, and let's face it, it's rare enough.

Erasing history (again you guessed it).

This is a nonsensical argument, of course. Nobody's doing that. The only historical act that's getting negated is the act of those who put up the statue, which in most cases will be some town dignitaries gathered to cut a ribbon or pull down a cloth covering the statue to unveil it. These are not important historical acts, but what goes with them is the ignorance and partiality that causes those enacting them to disregard the damage done to the exploited. Obviously, there's also a good deal of damage to the sculptor's work, but there you go.

I'm still chuckling over the Confederate statue that 'sucks so much ass it inadvertently subverts white supremacy' and should therefore remain, in the opinion of one on-line commenter.

His statement that white men are hated around the world and there is a lot of racism against whites people

I think people just hate the English/British because we're cunts and we probably fucked them over in the past, or more recently trashed their city when the football was on.

In terms of statues are there any anyone would miss? I’m struggling to think of many, certainly from an aesthetic point of view, there’s not much good art out there on plinths and most of the people represented are cunts by any current metric. How about Oscar flailing around in his coffin near Charing Cross ahahah

Had the chat last night with my inlaws... I quite like the Saville/Hitler angle for why we should remove statues of slavers.

terms of statues are there any anyone would miss?

This married to “why do you erect a statue in the first place” (celebration, reverence for the most part rarely education), has been an ok starting point.

The Bugle podcast had a lovely rant by Andy Saltzman on the subject yesterday.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

I love that Oscar Wilde statue and quote, also learnt more about Irish literature and culture through the theatre, then in any lesson at school.

Akala spoke the truth regarding racial indifference toward Irish and Jewish people here was akin to the struggle of black men and women for the past +60 years.

if a statue is placed to commemorate the "good" that people have done whilst completely failing to mention the shitty things, it is by definition a pretty substandard method of teaching history. unless of course you hoof these rotten old things into the drink, in which case they are a great way of informing folks about our shameful past.

3 years since a lot of people died
please watch and show a green light https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2I7AIl0K_iu7IB9RnZC76Q

for Jessica
Please watch and turn your house green https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2I7AIl0K_iu7IB9RnZC76Q

1 Attachment

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2I7AIl0K_iu7IB9RnZC76Q
Please

We resent being called entitled or privileged

Not sure this is one you can win, have known white men argue with people that they don't have privilege as other have have but they didn't and don't have the same.

Have had family members who worked in the oil industry in Saudi arabia et al. They had some odd views of the local population, when the only real interaction with the locals were as servers or servants.

Thanks for starting this thread. Do you think anything will actually change in the UK as a result of the current protest?

They have locals working as servants in Saudi Arabia?

His statement that white men are hated around the world and there is a lot of racism against whites people is hard to argue against

Well it's certainly not my experience. I can't think of any time that, as a white man, I've felt myself the victim of racism, and I've travelled pretty far and wide in my time. OK, the secretaries in the Bangkok law firm where I spent 6 weeks doing work experience all claimed I looked like Elvis Presley, despite the fact I don't - apart from being white and having (in those days) black hair. Other than that - and I chalk that up as an amusing anecdote rather than a sign of racist oppression - I can't think of a single instance where I've felt that I've been treated in a negative way due to the colour of my skin.

The erasing history was frustrating. I tried to give current examples of actually erasing history - eg the repetition of the statement that Britain was the first country to abolish slavery.

Part of the challenge is I think that these arguments come from an emotional place of a feeling of loss and attack. Being attacked triggers a base response which is hard to defused. Is the best way to counteract that to explain that there is no loss? The problem there is that once the primeval part of your brain is engaged you need an emotional angle - ideally another fear or danger. The status quo self evidently can't provide that.

(thinking aloud here).

@Dramatic_Hammer - I reckon Saville is the one to use. Hilter comes across as too extreme on the balance sheet of history.

Don’t think even for a second that the abolition of slavery had anything to do with humanity.. in fact it wasn’t even an overnight transition on Britain’s part, the word gradual comes to mind.

Look at our colonial history, America’s independence, the industrial revolution, the machine age.

Slaves just became obsolete, it’s not what we were taunt in school in the 80s, might be different today. William Wilberforce credited for the change through Parliament, but not at the expense of those in power.

#fightthepower