That Starmer fella...

By that logic. He was standing up in the photos/video not sitting down, and kier starmer sacked him.

Therefore he was sacked for standing up.

Exactly. Media strategy MATTERS. It's what means people still associate Corbyn with the Russkies and why Starmer is having to fight so hard to stay still when Johnson can get utterly tanked with a KGB agent and the red tops barely bat an eyelid. People see words like 'radical' and they recoil.

Think about New Labour. Barely a mention of the Bank Of England in the 97 manifesto, but so important to Blair and Brown that they made it independent in the first week of office. What you sell to the public is bland so you can do something bold when you're in office.

My great grandfather and grandfather had to flee their home country because they were socialists and when they got here they were interned for two years and then under surveillance from MI5 for 20 years. Banned from entering the USA...post opened...wire taps. Even their kids were banned from entering the US until the late 90s. This wasn't that many decades ago. I'm really not sure that beyond trade unionism, whether the left has ever really established itself here.

I know I will receive howls of laughter for this from some, but I think Starmer is pretty far left of centre in personal idealogy. At least that's the impression I get from his pre politics legal opinions.

Agree 100%. He's far to the left of Blair, not quite so far to the left as Corbyn, but much closer to it than the other way - he's part of the soft left tradition of Neil Kinnock and the like. He just knows that if he says it out loud he'll be a commie pinko traitor trotsky (etc etc) and less able to lead the party to govt.

You got any examples of that? I mean, I know he spoke at pro-Palestine events before that was deemed unacceptable by the shriekers and he defended those in the McLibel trial, but he did an awful lot of seriously dodgy shit too, including trying to deport someone with learning difficulties for hacking into the Pentagon and being on-the-record furious when Theresa May (of all people!) overruled him.

I’d also love to know what evidence from Starmer’s recent career would suggest that he’s some kind of stealth leftist - as he was a bit of cunt of a DPP and hasn’t done anything since then to suggest that that cuntiness was an aberration - or whether this is just a sort of weird fifties housewife valium fantasy about a man who looks nice in a suit.

Enjoyed the latest episode of Full Disclosure with Mick Lynch which includes some discussion of what Starmer should be doing

Wish there was more of this type of conversation in the mainstream media

including trying to deport someone with learning difficulties for hacking into the Pentagon

Isn't this just more partisan bullshit though? Starmer ruled that there was no prospect of a trial in the UK for McKinnon due to lack of evidence and the fact that almost all of the witnesses were in the USA and the US were refusing to cooperate on classified evidence.. He did not rule that he should be deported he ruled that there was no prospect of a trial or conviction in the UK. The wording of the decision is available online if you want to read it.

When I say Starmer expressed left wing ideals while DPP I'm not talking about case law where he was expected to apply the law (and which would be open to appeal and challenge if he was partisan), I'm referring to the stuff he did on procedural reforms.

He ruled that two months after Theresa May blocked the extradition, which he was trying to expedite. But by all means link to the 'post-horse bolting' 'decision'.

For example?

True. Theresa May blocked the extradition on grounds of human rights and asked Starmer to rule on whether he should face trial in the UK or not. He ruled in the negative due to lack of evidence and US cooperation.

My understanding is that the DPP has no direct role in extradition requests. At most, the requesting country can ask the CPS for help completing their application to make sure they understand the legal process in England. Afaik an extradition requests is a matter for the secretary of state and the sitting judge who ultimately gets to decide on the extradition if the secretary of state certifies the request in the first place.

Can you tell me if my understanding is incorrect?

For example?

The first thing to remember tis that Starmer's appointment as DPP turned a lot of heads because of his perceived left leaning bias.

In the words of David Renton, Barrister and former Socialist Worker Party member:

As a “leftwing lawyer” and “principled opponent of state power”, he was not an “obvious choice” to lead the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and this was “borne out by some of his decisions”

In terms of things that make me feel that Starmer has left leaning ideals: (I accept that this is not a definitive proof of anything but I feel that taken together, they show he is not right wing).

Legal work (both before and after DPP)

• Did a lot of pro bono work fighitng death penalty cases and campaigning to end the death penalty in various African and Caribbean countries.
  
• Various involvements in Stephen Lawrence murder, pushing for Met to be investigated for institutional racism, ultimately leading to the retrial.
  
• Actively pushed for softer sentences in assisted suicide cases.
  
• A big part of the MP expenses scandal seeing the light of day was down to Starmer. Prosecuted three Labour MPs for it.
  
• Has received several international awards for his human rights law work.
  
• Opposed attempts to repeal the human rights act.
  
• McLibel
  
• Oversaw a human rights reform process for policing in Northern Ireland
  
• Provided legal opinions challenging the legality of the Iraq war.
  
• Supported investigations into UK inteligence services torturing prisoners oversees
  
• Changed rules to make it more likely for MPs to be investigated and prosecuted for law breaking. (Chris Huhne etc)
  
  
  

Outside of his legal work

• Advocates for significant increase in spending for the NHS and public health.
  
• In favour of abolishing tuition fees
  
• In favour of increased mesures to prevent tax avoidance
  
• Against corporation tax reductions
  
• In favour of nationalising regional bus services and railways.
  
• In favour of assisted suicide
  
• In favour of higher taxation of banks and financial institutions
  
• Voted against restrictive regulation of trade unions
  
• Voted against most bills to introduce stricter immigration rules
  
• Voted against stricter asylum rules
  
• In favour of reducing voting age to 16
  
• In favour of more power to Sottish and Welsh assemblies
  
• Opposed phasing out secure tenancies for vulnerable people
  
• Anti fracking
  
• Votes cosnsitently in favour of more envrionmental protections
  
• Opposed HS2
  
• Consistently voted against use of UK military forces in combat operations overseas
  
• Voted for more EU integration (before Brexit)
  
• Opposed cuts to welfare spending
  
• Almost always voted for paying higher benefits over longer periods for those unable to work due to illness or disability
  
  

IMHO, if you look at his track record as a barrister and MP, its very hard to form the opinion that he is a Tory in sheeps clothing. He's a man who has built a career on standards in public life and protecting human rights and individual freedoms.

Solid.

Most of that can be summarised as supporting human rights and the rule of law, which puts him in centrist dad territory rather than the left.

Hence the Tory in sheeps clothing accusations.

I mean, I don't think he's right wing in the sense Nigel Farage is, but to say he's left wing is a huge stretch or - possibly more likely - an interpretation of left wing that is somewhat different to mine.

While DPP he also:

1. Supported a government “superdatabase” that would collect all phone and internet communications.
   
2. Altered CPS guidelines to facilitate the prosecution of peaceful protesters and punish alleged ‘rioters’ with harsher jail sentences.
   
3. Whitewashed the spycops scandal, protecting undercover police officers who had stitched-up leftwing activists.
   
4. Failed to prosecute the lead MI5 officer in the case of Binyam Mohamed.
   
5. Obstructed an application by the Haldane Society of Socialist Lawyers (of which he was previously a member) for the private prosecution of former Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni for alleged war crimes.
   
6. Proposed more lengthy prison sentences for benefit cheats.
   
   

Which rather suggests his appetite for upholding human rights and the rule of is selective at best.

The 'TheyWorkForYou' cut and paste is, as hugo7 says, placing him firmly in centrist dad territory (especially since he abstained on the Tory Welfare Bill along with an awful lot of Labour MPs to their eternal shame). He'd have no business being in the Labour party if he didn't have such a voting record (but that's another debate entirely). Less Rosa Luxemburg, more Waitrosa Luxemburg.

If you look at his direction of travel, it probably gives you a better indication of his actual politics. For me, he looks like someone who doesn't really like change, certainly not of the radical kind. And given his more recent moves, he seems like the living embodiment of the Groucho Marx quote: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."

But YMMV. I doubt either of us are going to convince the other of his merits or otherwise.

The problem for Starmer is, if you think he's a closet lefty, you can bet your sweet life the editors/proprietors of some of our more popular newspapers think so too. And we all know how little 'evidence' they need to launch orchestrated hatchet jobs, as demonstrated nicely by the lovely selection of front pages posted earlier.

E2a: I note the TheyWorkForYou list says he's pro nationalising railways. Wonder if he'd actually come out and say that now.

abstained on the Tory Welfare Bill

Important to bear in mind that this was at the second reading (i.e. whether it passes or not is symbolic - it has no impact on actual law) and much more nuanced than some rags would have you believe. https://m.facebook.com/hoveandportslade/photos/the-welfare-bill-last-night-i-abstained-on-a-vote-for-the-second-reading-of-the-/467286013445106/

Even the Lib Dems voted against it. So, you know, if you're trying to prove your left wing credentials, I'd suggest abstaining on the Bill would not be the way to go about it.

Even the Lib Dems voted against it

Four Lib Dem MPs voted against the bill at the second reading, which is what we're talking about, and one, Charles Kennedy, abstained from voting. There were eight LD MPs total in the 2015 parliament. Second reading is for debate and amendment. If MPs fail to amend the bill, they oppose at third reading.

I appreciate it's a much better soundbite to say TORY STARMER LOVES CUTS but it'd be more accurate to say that Labour had a generic policy of abstaining at second readings for opposition bills (Corbyn had the same policy and was dragged through the same political windmill for imposing whips to abstain on some of the more mad Brexit policies proposed by the Tories) which can be used for political ends by people who don't really understand the process by which a bill gets passed.

Most of that can be summarised as supporting human rights and the rule of law, which puts him in centrist dad territory rather than the left.

You're definitely right. I was pondering that after making that post.

I do think that if you compare his voting record and legal track record with actual torys, it's clear that he's not one of them though. A tiny bit left of centre maybe, but where is the evidence that he has right wing views? I see none.

And while the infighting goes on, which will repel the floating voters that are essential, Johnson will stick the wife of a former Putin minister on his resignation honours list (as well as trying to corrupt the House of Lords by enobling loads of nodding dog place men).

But yes, Starmer is the issue.

Plenty of MPs voted against it. Some who can genuinely lay claim to being left wing, some actual real surprises too, fwiw.

I don't think I intimated TORY STARMER LOVES CUTS, but I would suggest if you want to use his record of voting as a clue to how much of a closet leftie he is, I probably wouldn't go for the welfare angle as a good example.

Dude, the thread's about Starmer.

Bro, he’s not the issue but you keep banging that divisive drum