That Starmer fella...

It is tangentially relevant though isn't it? I think I partially kicked the thread in this direction by posting the clip of Darren Grimes on Julie Hartley Brewers show explaining one of the reasons for red wall seats voting blue is that they are tired of what they perceive as wokeism and Labour pandering to 'twitter issues' and don't like being called rascist, biggoted, xenophobic by out of touch liberal city types. We have probably seen that play out in the last few pages and it is the hole that labour need to square.

I asked what can Labour do if the general electorate has moved further right than Labour philosophically/ morally is able to but no one responded.
(I think that if Labour could sell a vision that inspired people then they would vote for them as jobs, health, prosperity are more important to voters than peoples personal views on social issues but currently it appears to by the incumbent selling the vision of a better future.)

clip of Darren Grimes on Julia Hartley Brewer's show

discussion could probably have ended there and then tbf. those people on those platforms are not debating from a position of good faith (plus they also have very smooth brains)

if the general electorate has moved further right

have they?

what can Labour do if the general electorate has moved further right than Labour philosophically

I think this is a great question. Personally I think it's not that (most) people are strongly to the right on these issues, but that they think they are a lower order of priority than other stuff (covid at the moment). My feeling is that the pushback isn't "we don't care about equality" but more "there are bigger incidences of inequality that we see". So there's probably an element of needing to push social issues more in a bouyant economy, when people have more mental bandwidth to consider them.

Isn't it that dismissive attitude that is alienating people?

Maybe, maybe not, maybe we are all just too old and affluent to need what Labour are selling

Source https://twitter.com/undertheraedar

for what it's worth I don't think it's dismissiveness or PC/woke culture gone mad that is alienating people from the labour party. it's the fact they have nothing to say about their lives, or a vision/offer that will make the country a better place. the reason they don't have anything to say is because the people in charge have no ideas beyond reheated blairism and appeals to 'electability'. they only know how to bully, wreck and be rude. when the labour party did have something to say for people's lives, the self same people spent years briefing and undermining the leadership in the press. hell they even went so far as to create their own astroturfing operation (the people's vote campaign) to wreck the party's electoral prospects because they knew brexit was kryptonite to the party's electoral coalition. the very same people are now turning round and barefacedly saying 'well of course we lost hartlepool, it was a very leave area.' um I'm glad you're exhibiting some understanding of the nuances at play across labour's electoral map but.... lol why did you push and push the party towards its disastrous brexit policy... umad bro ?

anyway I'm in the same place now as the person who posted the dicaprio meme. I wanted to jump in a burning bin on election night in december 2019 but now I'm just numb

(and please don't take what I've written above as a full absolution of the corbyn leadership - it was abysmal in many ways and the 2019 GE campaign was a disaster class. however, before labour can have any chance of progressing it needs to have an HONEST reckoning with what went wrong and right in 2017 and 2019.)

As someone not that in touch with the nuances - isn't it kind of bad PR to dominate the news the day after election results with sacking and reshuffling? The headline narrative is "because Labour did so terribly badly they are changing everything (kneejerk, look desperate)". It just doesn't come across like a party to have any faith in and it still doesn't get across anything of interest to potential voters. Why the rush?

Guessing we will find out in time what went on but seems like it might not be as clear cut as originally suggested on the reshuffle
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1391325024536219650

But yeh they could of waited the for good news in London, West of England, Manchester Mayoral races to get some airtime first

I think with the Hartlepool hospital thing, the Labour MP was implicated in closures so to that extent it was an issue for Labour voters, or at least one the Tories could exploit.
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19243345.labour-candidate-accused-hospital-hypocrite-report-recommended-cutting-services/

candidate on the panel who signed off on closure of critical services at the local hospital.... had already recently (2019) lost another election in nearby teeside... he was an arch remainer standing in a heavily leave area.... makes complete sense that he was imposed on the local party (from a shortlist of one) by central office

Except you can’t believe a single word that comes out of Dan hodges’ mouth

Posts like this really need to use the reply function.

Maybe it did but the target post was deleted

for what it's worth I don't think it's dismissiveness or PC/woke culture gone mad that is alienating people from the labour party. it's the fact they have nothing to say about their lives, or a vision/offer that will make the country a better place

This I think is key. I've been doing my best not to pontificate about this weekends results until they're in (you can imagine how hard that would be for me but I think it's important) but the more I'm thinking about it the more this argument lands with me.

The woke stuff is important. It really is. It's easy to take the piss out of but it is important. If we're going to be a party about social justice then we have to be about social justice.

But for most voters, it's the sauce, not the meal. The meal is life and death stuff; the rollout, crime, drugs, jobs, house prices, that stuff. Get that right, and we've earned the right to talk about the woke stuff. Only talk about the woke stuff and we look like we don't live in the real world.

Does that sound right to any of you?

Posts like this really need to use the reply function.

Honestly I think its an evergreen response and one we should all heed in these difficult times.

I agree. It's messy and difficult. I don't have the answers.

I want Burnham to stay as Manchester mayor for the time being.

But for most voters, it's the sauce, not the meal. The meal is life and death stuff; the rollout, crime, drugs, jobs, house prices, that stuff. Get that right, and we've earned the right to talk about the woke stuff. Only talk about the woke stuff and we look like we don't live in the real world.

I'd agree with this. For many people it's just not really on their radar and very low down the priority list.

What do you do when Labour keep winning Mayoral races? You switch to first past the post of course:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/09/government-to-change-english-voting-system-after-labour-mayoral-victories

Yep, that's what had happened.

Worried your electoral system might be too fair?

Concerned your voters might have real choice rather than always choosing a least worst option?

Try First Past the Post.

Another political what if:

If Blair hadn't bottled introducing AV+ like the report he commissioned recommended.

If Blair hadn't

A lot of mileage in this game

Was that Blair / Labour government not better than the decades of Tory governments that sandwich it?

I’m never sure what the exact Blairism issues are, given we don’t live in an ideal world and all governments are kinda shit. I’m interested in opinions.

Iraq war obvs