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why do people think burnham wouldn't just be captured by the same wreckers who have done for starmzy
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what are sex based rights why am I engaging
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How about no one is a prick to anyone.
It's fairly fucking easy.
Kind of.
I'm here for the trans rights and I'm here for the women's rights and it shouldn't need qualifications but I'm personally invested (or whatever) in both.
I get frustrated at these views that suggest some kind of either/or between them. It feels a bit like that meme about taking cookies away from immigrants and poor people although obviously the analogy doesn't quite run.
And I'm not always a Labour voter but if large numbers of people truly believe that only the Tories are going to protect their rights, I do think it's worth addressing, and not just pointing and shouting TRANSPHOBE! at them. Where has this belief come from? And the idea that Labour are 'prioritising' trans safety over women's safety? Is it a rumour on mumsnet and other places that's been repeated so often it just becomes accepted? Is it something that has any basis? Is it all just a big misunderstanding? Cos I'd quite like to take those votes away from the Tories. Mind you I'm also the sort of person who 'engages with racists' (not if they're actually trying to attack me at the time, usually) and I get that's not really the done thing round here.
Actually what I meant to say was that I don't think it is as easy as all that. I think there are complications in the implementation/actioning which need people to recognise are complicated and not just shout at each other with fixed and different versions of reality. What frustrates me is when these specific issues are used to justify taking a particular 'higher level' stance about abstract rights, 'encroachments', philosophies, political and human priorities. But I freely admit that politics in general is not my expertise.
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Could someone please briefly explain to me how/the debate about how Labour (or whoever) is undermining female rights via trans rights? This is not a troll; it's an area I genuinely don't understand and would welcome some balanced explanation.
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This clip is sad on why Hartlepool voters voted Tory
https://twitter.com/resophonick/status/1391288617449005058 -
Just to say - I did read a lot of it and didn't feel particularly enlightened. Don't really want to write a longer response to it now, but the blog post/email that says "Don't worry transpeople, I'm perfectly nice to you in person! It's just the structural stuff I'm against." is illustrative. Quite a lot is responding to personal attacks or professional/academic issues, which makes it feel self-referential, but fair enough on a personal blog.
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Does anyone on here really believe that all women should be able to access all spaces traditionally reserved for biological women with no discussion
Yes.
whilst shouting abuse at any woman who expressed concern?
No. But bigots are bigots, and should be called out.
continue to give zero weight to women's sex based rights
This is just crass.
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I would ask you to look again at your statement I previously quoted. It is not neutral, it is not a statement of fact. You are pitting one group against the other and if you can't see how that statement places the blame on transpeople, that's also a problem.
Edit: oh well, your next posts suggest you aren't interested in that at all.
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Ok, think I'm getting this.
To clarify, is someone/some entity asserting that all toilets should be mixed, or than MTF students (with genuine apologies if I'm using the wrong term) should have access to the female space(s)?
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In good faith i’ll say Your assumption is based on two misreasonings:
1) that all trans people are just MTF, or have male sex organs, trans men also exist and much of , near all of, what trans rights movements call for is equal treatment for trans people, not specifically trans women.
By extension there is a lot of overlap with non binary people, where you’ll have femme thems asking for similar protections with both male and female sex organs which could also be impacted by pushback against trans rights requests.
Now if seeing a trans person as a their identified gender makes you skeptical, this is where it’s important to know and talk to trans people. They’re often painted as “men in dresses” (trans men are never presented, at all), that they’re predators or tricksters (ironically why violence is so high is because men feel tricked into desiring them), but in reality they’re just really depressed and want and to pee in quiet without getting grunted at in the street, or leave the house dressed as who they see themselves as and not fear being called a faggot or beaten up.
2) that trans women are men, they’re not, they’re women, a popular gender critical reasoning to this, up until recently, has been Judith butlers work in which she formulated the idea of spectrum gender and that most of what we perceive as “sex” is actually just gender and a human construct. Typically this is used to argue that ftm’s are just dykes and mtfs are just gays who like dresses.
It was recently-ish butler was like “actually what it means is what’s between your legs is unimportant, arbitrary, most of what we desire for ourselves is actually how we want people to perceive us within this social construct. The idea that a trans man, would have likely always seen themselves as a man, but society would have not, a trans woman would always believe they’re a woman, society would not. It’s the mislabelling and pushing by society, our families, our teachers which causes the dysphoria trans people exhibit. For sake of brevity I will merely allude to the idea that just because trans people are socialised in a different gender does not mean trans women don’t experience male violence, there is a lot of data to back this up but I’m on a forum not my degree!
While biological sex may alter ones appearance, it’s not as Innate or binary as one might assume, so much so we can reverse, for anyone! With simple drugs! Drugs women use when there body stops producing them! And drugs men use when they haven’t got it going! Cis people drugs!
ignoring this hurts women, professional women athletes like caster semenya have to take feminising hormones to compete and Micheal phelps doesn’t. Or how women born without female reproduction organs or unable to conceive are ignored when gender critical discourse latches onto the idea of “bleeding”.
Sure, you’ll hear stuff in the news, maybe you’ll hear some wild stuff from both sides from time to time but honestly, it’s really quite boring when you unpack it!
I really recommend contra points videos if you’re looking for some really rigorous both sides-ism which falls quite quantitively and progressively.
So to answer your questions, none, but trans people are not asking for that, we’re asking to be seen as ourselves, women, men, and although not trans non binary people. It’s why you might receive such hostile responses, because it’s a hostile question, one that’s often used to deceive or divert away from genuine issues trans people want, like previously, healthcare, protection under the law, and right to be themselves.
I’m not going to reply any more, but really, I do urge you, get to know trans people, we’re a good bunch. from your comments you seem to be latching onto a lot of buzz words that trans people roll their eyes at when used, but may use as memes themselves because they’re so bizarre. more often than not, are actually formulated by cis equality bodies looking to appear inclusive or politically correct, to both sides annoyance. Think of how they try to come up with a new word for “poor people” every 5 years. I think getting to know trans people and who they are and what they want would really help show this,
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Thanks for the info. Lots of things pop into my head, but I will do some reading before offering any comment on the subject, I think.
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Jeez has got more boring since he was here last.
Also - his position would appear to be that there's a finite quantity of rights, and that it's smaller than the pool of people who should have them, therefore we all need to compete and by extension some will lose out. This strikes me as total bollocks, and as it's the basis of the argument does rather suggest how valid the rest of the argument is.
Anyway, I reckon Labour need to nail their colours to the mast and advance policies, and if those policies lose them votes then they need to accept that. They won't gain any if they don't - and the "waiting for people to hate the Tories enough to vote Labour" (their current policy, it appears) is reasonably tricky when almost all the media and the national broadcaster are subject to regulatory capture by the Tory administration.
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Are you able to point me toward any balanced pieces on the balance of Semynea and Mckinnon?
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We all know who you are, so why don't you fuck off before you get banned again.
Don't bother trying to creep back on again either you tedious twat.
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Can we get back to Starmer? Could be an interesting day of reshuffling. Any predictions?
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With caster it’s impossible to unpack without looking at it as racism, I can’t find a piece which links this into the wider discourse of how anti trans feminism and anti black feminism go hand in hand, but I think if you’re familiar with both you can piece them together
McKinnon is more clear cut, but interwoven none the less, I haven’t found a piece of writing which I think captures it, but here’s something I wrote a while back which also doesn’t but is my thoughts on anti black and anti trans discourse similarities in sports from a trans perspective (very broad stroke):
if we take this and then apply it to the other side of the coin, like phillipa york, who self admittedly again, says she could not possibly be "out" and a cyclist, she couldn't even be "privately out" because she feared for her growth in the sport we can say cycling is transphobic,
Rachel Mckinon is the US national champ in senior track cycling, regularly she is accused by competitors, fans and media "for cheating" as she "has an unfair advantage", this is not 20 years ago, this is what phillipa york was scared of however, we can say even now, professional cycling is transphobic, blanketly. if it wasn't any fan, press, competitor would be banned for even suggesting it, there is no discussion here, there is no "two sides", rachel mckinon is a woman, and is competing as such. A trans woman takes hormones to feel her self, which actively reduce their testosterone advantage, within 6 months, and there are rules in place to request this in professional sports already, so the natural extension is “yea but they still have the biological advantage”
people may say "she's destroying the field through a natural advantage", micheal phelps, was noted in his medical files to have an obscenely high lactic threshold, abnormal, inhuman, yet he was celebrated, not once was his manhood questioned, not once was his utter destruction of the field seen as tarring the sport, at least in a meaningful way, yet caster semenya? she cannot compete unless she takes hormone blockers in track running even tho she was born and is a woman.
this again only focuses on the very high echelons of sport, it doesn't focus on the transwomen who lose day in day out because they only got into sports post transition, where they felt safe and happy too, where others started from when they could walk, transwomen started from their mid 30's, suddenly trans women are not an issue here, we don’t hear the names of transwomen who lose. and it should be noticed transwomen are not saying this is a problem either, they just want to compete in a field they feel accepts them and they feel mirrors them, win or lose, it's their passion.
trans teen wrestler, mack begs, a man routinely won the womens texas state wrestling champs why? because he was FTM and the sport did not permiss him to compete with the men, as such he proceeded to win everything in the womens division, funnily, nothing noted here with him having a testosterone based growth advantage (which he needs to feel himself)
these examples show that the individualised models lead to conflicting narratives, meant to support the dominant powers of racism, transphobia, anti blackness, and sexism within sports, the individualised and attomised nature allows the rules to be drawn where they suit the public mood, not the sport or the competitors.
they're not consistent, they're not meaningful, especially when all people affected by these meandering morals is fair and equal opportunity to do what they love.
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Anyway, I reckon Labour need to nail their colours to the mast and advance policies, and if those policies lose them votes then they need to accept that.
Agreed, Starmer has been saying for months that now isn't the time for policies and he will present policies nearer to a GE in a manifesto but given one of the main reasons for doing poorly according to polling has been lack of policies/ not understanding what they stand for they have to change that position. I really don't know what vision they can sell though now that the Tories own levelling up and build back better which both seem popular. Probably should be a huge package of welfare reforms and an industrial plan under a Green New Deal banner but will be hard to distinguish from what the Tories are claiming to be offering and with the reputation for being fiscally irresponsible, how can they sell a package of fiscal stimulus like Biden is doing when they are seen as the party of the magic money tree.
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Radiolab have two good podcasts on Semynea.
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/caster-semenya-meaning-sports-and-femininity
This one on Dutee Chand
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/dutee -
labour seat results in scottish parliament elections:
1999 ~ 56
2003 ~ 50
2007 ~ 46
2011 ~ 37
2016 ~ 24
2021 ~ 22a preview of things to come in england. can sir keir starmer QC beat scottish labour's PASOKification any% speed run?
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Who’s your top 5 favourite trans people if you’re a real fan