Chat about Novel Coronavirus - 2019-nCoV - COVID-19

don't see why we should accommodate the opinions of anyone who is suggesting that a choice that could affect the existence of thousands of people is in fact, a choice.

nope.

don't see why we should accommodate the opinions of anyone who is suggesting that a choice that could affect the existence of thousands of people is in fact, a choice.

If you don't attempt to understand why people don't want the vaccine then you won't be able to talk them into having it. I suspect the vaccine hesitant are mostly people who don't understand the situation rather than people who are making a choice to harm other people.

i honestly don't care. you and i and everyone else has access to the same information - at this point, i can't accept that the choice to not get it (presuming you can) is motivated by anything other than straight up contrarianism - especially anyone "on here".

A few weeks ago I had a chat with a young woman working at Sainsburys in New Cross Gate. She didn't see the point in having the vaccine because "you can have it and still get covid". When I explained to her that the whole point is that if you have the vaccine, you get it less badly and therefore are less likely to be a strain on hospitals, she had no idea and genuinely seemed surprised by what I just told her. It just didn't dawn on her that this is about something bigger than herself.

you and i and everyone else has access to the same information

This is simply not true. You and I have the intelligence, curiosity and education to seek out information. Not everybody has that. There are nearly three million people in the UK who have not used the internet in the last 3 months according to the ONS...where are they getting their information from? The Daily mail? Uncle Bob?

at this point, i can't accept that the choice to not get it (presuming you can) is motivated by anything other than straight up contrarianism.

Honestly, it just sounds like you're in one hell of a bubble and overestimate the capabilities and access to information that a lot of people have. Sure, there are the covid denier cunts and conspiracy theorists who are contrarian...fuck them sky high. Thats not everybody who isn't having a vaccine though.

Here's the latest ONS report on vaccine hesitancy

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthandwellbeing/bulletins/coronavirusandvaccinehesitancygreatbritain/28aprilto23may2021

Among those with negative vaccine sentiment, there were differences in the reasons for vaccine refusal reported across various population groups, some of which are:

Around 1 in 3 (31%) women selected reasons relating to fertility.

Clinically extremely vulnerable (44%) and disabled adults (27%) were most likely to be worried about the effect on an existing health condition, compared with 11% of all adults.

Those living in the least deprived areas of England (27%) were more likely to say that coronavirus was not a personal risk than those living in the most deprived areas (8%).

EDIT: Sorry, that was the previous one. Current one is here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthandwellbeing/bulletins/coronavirusandvaccinehesitancygreatbritain/26mayto20june2021

I think you massively overestimate peoples time to access all the information , synthesize and cross reference and be generally engaged, especially when they can listen to MP's, scientists and medical professionals online and on radio, people in a position of authority saying that we should have the economy open, it's just flu, everyone is already protected who needs protecting etc., it only impacts the old and those with existing health conditions etc.

I think greenhell is being quite specific about at whom his ire is waged. They have definitely used the internet in the last 3 months and seem to have at least a modicum of reasoning and analytical skills.

The ship with the idea, that you vaccine to less likely infect others, has long passed?

The ship with the idea, that you vaccine to less likely infect others, has long passed?

I have no idea about that...I knew that it was up for question but haven't paid any attention to the research. I was more talking about people with the vaccine being less likely to need hospitalisation.

I think greenhell is being quite specific about at whom his ire is waged. They have definitely used the internet in the last 3 months and seem to have at least a modicum of reasoning and analytical skills.

I didn't spot that, but that explains it. Was just pointing out that not all people refusing the vaccine are doing it for contrarian reasons. Obviously unnecesarily.

But FREEDOM. Is there a homeopathic or crystal therapy cure for covid?

Wonder where the homeopathic/crystal therapy smallpox went....

he ship with the idea, that you vaccine to less likely infect others, has long passed?

You piqued my curiosity. Just came across this paper:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107058?query=featured_home

Authorized mRNA vaccines were highly effective among working-age adults in preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection when administered in real-world conditions, and the vaccines attenuated the viral RNA load, risk of febrile symptoms, and duration of illness among those who had breakthrough infection despite vaccination. (Funded by the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.)

On transmission after vaccination... I might be already posted this before -

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1112

A total of 552 984 residential households with 2-10 people where there was at least one case were included. In households where the index case was not vaccinated before testing positive, the study found 96 898 secondary cases from 960 765 household contacts (10.1%).

Meanwhile, in households where the index case received the AstraZeneca vaccine 21 days or more before testing positive, 196 secondary cases were seen in 3424 contacts (5.72%). With the Pfizer vaccine (one dose 21 days or more before testing positive), 371 secondary cases were found in 5939 contacts (6.25%).

A genuine question:

I had Covid in September, confirmed by PCR; fortunately it was fairly mild and I suffered no long term effects apart from loss of taste and smell until about Xmas.

I had my first vaccine about 9 weeks ago and felt f-ing dreadful: genuinely worse than when I had Covid, and it lasted a fortnight.

Now I understand that in many countries that they are recommending 1 dose only for those who've had the virus, but here we're suggesting 2.

Can someone with a decent understanding of the science explain the disparity for me?

Track and trace forecast to have half the capacity that will be needed for the third wave, especially with the plan to remove isolating for double jabbed if they seek a PCR test instead
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/08/lifting-covid-rules-in-england-will-overwhelm-testing-capacity

It's uncertain how your own immune response to your covid infection was. Some people simply do not give a robust and long lasting immune response to the virus. The immune response to the vaccine is much better so keep the planned schedule. The one jab if you have had covid is to eek out supply if needed

Can someone with a decent understanding of the science explain the disparity for me?

Have you been exposed to dangerous amounts of liberal propaganda? It sounds like your immune system massively overreacted to a minor flu. /sarcasm

Do you mean the disparity in the guidelines or in your reaction to covid vs the vaccine?

The disparity in the guidelines.

I’m not talking about taking away anyone’s choice.

You know, that argument really bugs me. Society has the moral and legal right to take away people’s choice when it comes to protecting everyone in society from foreseeable, irreparable, physical harm. It’s not even up for debate. But that discussion seems to be too nuanced for most people and they tend to lose the plot.

So our society agrees that we should allow adults who are compos mentis to have the freedom to choose whether or not they’re vaccinated. Fine, let them make their choice I say, but that doesn’t mean they get to be exempt from the consequences of their choice. The problem is that there is a majority of selfish cunts among those who don’t want the vaccine, who also don’t want to abide by any guidelines or restrictions on their activities. They don’t want to be vaccinated or wear masks, but they do want to socialise freely and meander around shops, they feel it’s their right to override other people’s wishes regarding their own personal space. They claim the right to choose for other people, which is so ironic you could cure global anemia with it but that is also too nuanced for those folks.

Our difficulty controlling this isn’t just because of the abysmal government response, it’s that we’ve been catering to these millions of dense fuckers who simply don’t want to change their lifestyle to save others from harm. Why do we bother? Various reasons, but it’s mainly down to basic politics: the government doesn’t have the political capital to enforce the rules, even if it had the political will. I personally suspect that BoJo knows that and has purposely avoided strict enforcement measures because it would showcase how weak his govt is, as soon as it becomes apparent that they can’t enforce the measures.

Also, there’s simply too many of the aforementioned idiots to just lock up until it all blows over.

surely boths sides of an arguement is good?

I understand that there are a lot of fine people on both sides. Including the white supremacists.

The trouble is that all too often on both sides of the argument there's actually an argument on one side and utter self-entitled bullshit on the other. That doesn't give them equal validity.

The trouble is that all too often on both sides of the argument there's actually an argument on one side and utter self-entitled bullshit on the other. That doesn't give them equal validity.

God thank you and thanks for calling a spade a spade.

God thank you and thanks for calling a spade a spade.

You should've seen the original version I typed but didn't post...

Found out the person my wife guy Covid off has been in hospital the past 4 days, out now but that's a youngish double jabee getting pretty ill after picking it up after an immune suppressing treatment. It'll be shit if anyone getting similar has to isolate when doing so or risk Covid because it's just allowed to spread.

The trouble is that all too often on both sides of the argument there's actually an argument on one side and utter self-entitled bullshit on the other. That doesn't give them equal validity.

I don't think anybody is suggesting giving both side equal validity, just that engaging with and understanding what is going on with the other side is the key to changing minds. Listening to and understanding something doesn't mean you agree with it. It just makes things less tribal, less them vs us and arms you with the knowledge to try to change people's minds.