Musk is a cunt and Tesla are shit

Their business is built on ICE vehicles, and as long as none of the big manufacturers breaks ranks and goes full speed ahead with a wide range of electric vehicles, produced at a scale that reduces the unit cost so they are cheaper than the ICE alternative, then tesla will remain a niche manufacturer with an insane valuation

...and none of them will so long as the public continues to prefer ICEVs, unless we ban them.

I have a RAV4 hybrid it cost £40k which due to the tax system was worth me getting over a £35k diesel, if I’d had £60k to spend I’d have got a plug in hybrid which would have cost me even less in tax.
I’m not sure what things cost to make but £25k for some batteries and motors?
Perhaps the car industry offers 3 price points to get as many sales as possible £35k,£40k and £60k and the Tax system subsidises their massive profits on the more expensive options by reducing my Company Car Tax

and can be fully recharged in 15 minutes.

Only if you have the infrastructure to deliver that amount of power in such short amount of time. Read someone who’s done the maths on it and the result was something along the lines of “unlikely “

I would suspect there's also a vicious circle where manufacturers don't want to release cars as there is little infrastructure and governments don't want to build infrastructure as there aren't that many cars (and are probably hoping the car manufacturers will pay).

I suspect that someone like Toyota will race ahead in electric cars when it becomes worth it. They've been perfecting the technology with hybrids that are now reliable than their ICE cars so the final step shouldn't be too far.

Company car tax is doing this already with 0% BiK on EVs this year rising to 1% in April. I’ve had a plug in hybrid for the last three years and have a fully electric car coming end of Jan (or more likely August after it’s sat rotting in a port for half a year with Brexit and COVID delays...). It does nothing for mass market adoption but I guess makes it look like the government are doing something towards climate change. We will keep my wife’s ICE car for longer journeys but I expect the EV to take 95% of our driving workload.

On infrastructure a real pain point to now has been that there are tonnes of different charge point providers all of whom have a different app or subscription model you need to sign up with. Car makers are starting to cut deals with them so it looks like my new one should come with an ‘Audi card’ that gets me access to about 80% of them on a single account. Until this is sorted nationally though it’s another significant barrier, there needs to be a system like with train tickets sitting above the individual providers.

I do think there is a serious bubble in how EV companies are valued. Tesla at least have infrastructure, market share and production models out there, but there’s start ups getting valued at billions with none of this, which all smells very dot com to me. The section on them in the Ars deathwatch article was quite illuminating... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/12/ars-technicas-2021-deathwatch-2020-was-just-the-beginning/

Only if you have the infrastructure to deliver that amount of power in such short amount of time. Read someone who’s done the maths on it and the result was something along the lines of “unlikely “

Sure, its a future thing. Wholesale power network upgrades will be required even for bog standard Panasonic/Tesla charging when people actually start buying the things in decent numbers. Its so much unlikely as a certainty that will happen over time.

I suspect that someone like Toyota will race ahead in electric cars when it becomes worth it. They've been perfecting the technology with hybrids that are now reliable than their ICE cars so the final step shouldn't be too far.

My total finger in the air guess is that its going to be VW group and Toyota leading the way. Whether Tesla can keep up with them is anybody's guess. Its certainly possible.

A quick thought on charging networks, BP and various other UK oil and gas operators have been snapping up EV charging companies over the last few years. Tesco and Asda have also formed partnerships for their carparks. Its clear that EV infrastructure is a mid term and onward strategy .

Only if you have the infrastructure to deliver that amount of power in such short amount of time. Read someone who’s done the maths on it and the result was something along the lines of “unlikely “

Apologies if I misunderstand - but “unlikely” sounds like they are saying it’s not possible to build national charging infrastructure, full stop.

A simplistic answer like that suggests the person either has an agenda or is clueless. The only sensible answer is one based on depth and time: how many, how much power, how many cars, over what time scale.

Am I going to get fast charge infrastructure on my street before or after I get fibre broadband?

There more money to be made in fast charge infrastructure than broadband so probably.

Company car tax is doing this already with 0% BiK on EVs this year rising to 1% in April.

Which is another reason for manufacturers to focus on more expensive cars. It’s a generalisation but £50k+ company cars tend to be driven by people paying 40% tax. £20k EVs driven by employees on 20% tax cost a lot less in tax than £60k EVs driven by 40% taxpayers

I’m not sure that the tax argument holds up when it makes no odds to the manufacturer what tax the customer pays.
More likely is that with a high base platform cost, adding a ‘premium’ fit out enables them to increase the markup multiplier.

£25k platform + £5k fit + £5k profit
Vs
£25k platform + £15k fit + £20k profit

Bearing in mind that £35k is a lot of money for a small car, whereas £60k is still within the ICE equivalent range.

If someone could bang out a basic EV for £15-20k they wouldn’t be able to make them fast enough to keep up.

Then there’s the prestige/aspirational angle - same reason you have adverts for Jaguar during youth programming. No one watching can afford one now but years later when they can, the brand still has that cachet.

This is the EV for the masses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUEKtOGmpVI

Whilst the video doesn't address the infrastructure for rapid charging, its an interesting^ watch about UK's energy network capacity and potential future demand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37M7ffjro3I

^ for engineers/geeks/dilberts

Whilst the video doesn't address the infrastructure for rapid charging, its an interesting^ watch about UK's energy network capacity and potential future demand.

The National Grid thinks that bloke is talking bollocks

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

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Just remembered that gas boilers are due to be banned in the next 15 years or so....suspect that will end up being a bigger driver behind electricity infrastructure upgrades than EVs in the end.

The National Grid thinks that bloke is talking bollocks

He agrees and fag packet calculates there is enough capacity, he also discusses about avoiding charging at the early evening peak time which the national grid suggest too.

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“ I’m not sure that the tax argument holds up when it makes no odds to the manufacturer what tax the customer pays.”

Manufacturers are acutely aware that the tax regime has an effect on consumers Eg Landrover discoveries priced at £39,999 to fall below a VED threshold
I know a few people in different companies who have negotiated a salary sacrifice or waived bonuses and pay rises to cover the increased lease cost of a EV and ended better off through reduced BiK. I’m sure their motives were pure and had nothing to do with the fact the EV was only available in Msport trim with a 6.5s 0-60 time.

avoiding charging at the early evening peak time which the national grid suggest too

Octopus are already making tariffs for retail customers that do this now and incentivise charging at times of lower demand/higher output. Commercial and Industrial tariffs have done this for years and are continually changing to drive large consumer behaviour changes to support the grid.

You’re talking about edge cases and specific price points (like the £1k ride to work thing, where loads of bike brands put out models at £999). It doesn’t explain why they’re not making cheap EVs. Arguably the savings in fuel/tax/etc made by lower-rate taxpayers would hold more weight in car choice as you have less disposable income in the first place.

You touch on another point though - long range = performance in terms of batteries so it’s relatively easy to get ridiculous numbers from a base platform (and charge the premium to match what would have traditionally involved a large complicated engine and gearbox).

Gonna be some load on the national grid with all the things they want to run off electric, can’t wait for it all to happen and then the infrastructure still isn’t in place full.

ABS isn't a core component, even if legally an essential one. Tesla are much more dependent on their battery suppliers (and the performance characteristics of their products) than any auto firm is on their ABS supply chain.

Yeah, I'm currently on the Octopus Go tarrif, 5p/kWh between 00:30 - 04:30. Nice knowing that when I have to drive my EV it costs less than 2p per mile and the added benefit with Octopus is they source all of the electricity supplied is from renewable sources.

We would move to octopus and then have our ground source heating come on in the off peak times but they are unable to say when they could install a smart meter for us which makes this not possible.