Musk is a cunt and Tesla are shit

https://www.lfgss.com/comments/14618615/

Maybe add..and autonomous vehicle discussion

@hippy

If only you could merge

(Responding to posts from the epic fail thread here so as not to take it off topic again)

So do you stand by this post @Stonehedge or is $35k not cheap enough? :P

I still think VW are going the right way with affordable electric cars rather than toys for the 1% like Tesla. The claim that they are expensive because they are first generation and will get cheaper in the future is utter bullshit.

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-model-3-35000-lyft-ipo-roundup/

Tesla are also closing a lot of their fancy showrooms. I'm less sure this is about democratising electric cars than Musk realising he will make more money by massifying, but the outcome is the same.

Oh and on the tech and ethics of self driving cars, that @andyp was talking about

What happens when a situation arises where the car has to crash, but can either hit the child who has run into the road, or crash into a lorry, almost certainly seriously injuring, and possibly killing, the occupants of the car? The ethics of that one would trouble everyone, not least the engineers writing the algorithm which their management demand saves the car occupants.

The tech is definitely there/will be there but you're right that the problem is ethical: essentially a computer deciding who lives or dies. But objectively most preventable incidents are caused by drivers, so widespread adoption of self driving cars will massively reduce deaths and injuries. It will happen, it's just going to create some real ethical and legislative headaches.

early days for electric cars still, battery costs and sizes need to come down, infrastructure is almost there though

If you have actually touched & felt a tesla it feels a bit 'foffa'. A tech-bro would never be able to compete with a scale up of VW/GM/Ford etc.

Polestar is great.

I have been working on on the biggest car brands' EV for last year+. Its been fun. I still hate cars.

I still hate cars.

Because of the disc brakes?

I still hate cars.

Yeah me too. The problem with electric cars is it feels like they're being presented by the automotive industry, car manufacturers and to a degree drivers as a panacea for the problems that cars present.

All they're really doing is shifting the power generation from micro to macro, which may be cleaner but electricity generation is still far from clean. And it's not going to solve all the other problems cars cause such as speeding, aggressive driving, misguided perceptions that they own the road/have right of way over other road users, killing vulnerable road users, twatty annoying bassy music etc. etc.

Have you got to drive any of these 'EVs'? I don't really get why everyone calls them EVs either, is electric cars too hard to type? Grumble grumble...

Ha.

Have you got to drive any of these 'EVs'?

I can't drive. I have seen the proto and have access to a Tesla :(

I may well have been wrong. But I’d prefer to wait until the car is actually launched and compared to the VW electric models. The UK pricing is rumoured to be £35k, which is a fuck ton more than the rumoured VW pricing for a car with a similar range. We will see.

VW based electric cars should be about £18 to £25k. Obviously might not be a like for like comparison the though.

All they're really doing

That's a pretty big "all" though. The impact on air quality and the environment as a whole from petrol / diesel vehicles is massive.

No they don't address the other problems, but that doesn't negate or minimise the ones that are being addressed. It's a bit like the US switch to shale gas - is it ideal? No, but is it an immediate and easy way to shelve the coal industry? Yes.

Moreover I think many of the issues you've highlighted will change over time with culture. Pretty sure the last thing I read on car ownership among the young is that it is a significantly less important social signifier for them than previous generations.

Just anecdotally, when I passed my test in the late '90s car ownership by friends my age in London was probably higher than it is now, and of those people work or kids has been the main motivating factor. Everyone wanted a car, even if it was a heap of shit. I'd be surprised if very many 17yos in London do now.

Also all this purchase pricing chat is irrelevant.

What is the p/m lease cost?

What is the tax cost, if it's a company car?

VW based electric cars should be about £18 to £25k.

E-Up is £25k. Its a tiny car. Thats still just shoving a battery in a current ICE car like most have done.

The only next gen EVs right now are Audi e-tron and Jaguar I-Pace. Both designed ground up with skateboard model. Both £70k-ish. Nissan leaf is ok and hot cake for London uber drivers.

EVs will never be as cheap as ICE, not in the recent future and thats the new reality that car owners will have to live with.

top quality. not that I expect any less from you

The company car bit is pretty important I think... I have a small business, we all get to choose our company cars, so BIK are obviously a factor in this. Historically you could get a "hybrid" and get really low rates even though the electric aspect is only good for 5 miles. For example I actually have a Mitsibushi Outlander currently, partially for that reason (I also live on a farm, so need 4wd and good ground clearance).
They have overhauled how the BIK rates work from next april, so it is not just done on a Co2 level (which is easy to get round it looks like) but also now on range as well.

I would love to have a hybrid that had a range of 100 miles electric only, but a small petrol engine for my occasional longer trips, but they don't exist (the i3 used to do this, but they have ditched the range extender model).

My choice therefore is a hybrid which has a range of around 30 miles, which is 12% BIK or a fully electric with 2% BIK.

Unless something else comes to market in the next few months I'll be getting the Jaguar i-pace, which is about £530 a month for a company car. And for long journeys will either have to build in charging time, take the train (do this most of the time anyway), or worst case borrow my wifes car.

You might want to follow 'Muddy Waters Research' on twitter. They shared information of one showroom where the batteries were being charged by diesel.. I am sure they are short on Tesla shares

Maybe just rename this thread to Tesla is shit and we aren't sure if Musk smells..

oh and I also get my electric from bulb so 100% renewable. Interestingly they are setting up a trial of smart chargers, to try and balance the load on the grid https://bulb.co.uk/blog/bulb-and-edmi-trialling-smart-ev-charging

oh and I also get my electric from the national grid so exactly the same as everyone else.

Unless something else comes to market in the next few months I'll be getting the Jaguar i-pace, which is about £530 a month for a company car.

Lots more coming very soon to meet the 2020 emissions target for every car manufacturer in the EU. Don't expect it to be cheap though. Similar bracket as i-pace.

Well yes.... but not sure what else I can do there? I am aiming to get solar, but it is a pricey thing to do.

Yes, annoying that there is little at the 30 to 40k mark, there is the Hyundai e-Kona and Kia e-niro. One thing I saw on those is that there is already long lead times on them

These will be in most places soon too: https://ionity.eu/

I'm confused as to whether they own any renewable power plants and actively put green energy into the grid or they have just worked out that their customers use less than we produce as a whole from renewable sources and therefore claim that their customers are 100% renewable powered.