EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

k

I’m still angry about the referendum, my post brexit partition rant is just a terrible reaction. Also being myopic should not be exclusive to those happy to leave the EU, as we are burdened by the fall out of no deal.

it's based on out-dated and fantastical ideas of exceptionalism and has become a refuge for those that dislike the modern, global world.

It's interesting isn't it how different people view the same thing?Personally, one of the (many) things that has really rustled my jimmies about Brexit is having a group of people effectively tell me I'm not patriotic or hate my country. I have a huge amount of pride for the many great things England and Britain has done. None of that prevents me recognising the whole host of the cunty things either.

For me, modern globalisation is the most quintessentially British movement there is. Likewise immigration is fundamental to my view of British identity, as is the rule of law, and technological advancement.

Having people in my family tree who were immigrants and chose here as a safe place to rebuild their lives, no doubt shapes my outlook.

I just see it as dangerous to allow nationalistic jingoism any more air than it's getting recently.

Well, we're agreed on that! My (respectful ) disagreement is that I think it would be helpful if there was more - discussion rather than air - given to other aspects of national identity. For me there are similarities with gender (bear with me) - it's a social construct and you could say we'd be better off without it. But whether the media are shit or there's no logic to identifying a certain way, it doesn't change the fact that it matters to people. It just does. We don't say - well misogyny is the worst, so let's not allow any discussion of gender. You can't just force people to "drop it". Maybe it would be better to create examples that aren't about backwards misplaced superiority.

That is much more similar to what the "official" UK values are per the exam I had to do to attempt to get citizenship (forms in the post...) than the jingoistic xenophobic nationalism of Johnson and many other brexiters.

It is thoroughly bonkers, despicable and inaccurate. How they get away with this shit is beyond me. As Dunt says, we are ‘ Slowly but surely turning into the very worst version of ourselves’.

And again, behold, the EU not rising to the bait:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/13/eu-leaders-stress-unity-as-they-welcome-brexit-trade-talks-extension

When I disagree with a theoretical position I don't engage with it. I can acknowledge it exists. In a real world context I'm not interested in discussing the benefits of Nationalism with anyone. I am interested in cooperating with my local community and family to try and keep us all a bit safer and communicating our needs, I don't think there's a kind of Nationalism that's going to help with that.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/reminder-that-britain-handed-the-license-to-monitor-its-waters-to-a-french-firm-last-year/13/12/?fbclid=IwAR3V95yxjhLwNPOHkueX9-fLhKal0hF7hZaIyH3WeyDFbzRlu8hwtWXZWPg

British waters contract give to French firm. I just can't anymore...

When I disagree with a theoretical position I don't engage with it.

Blimey. And people say I'm arrogant.

Just to be clear, I'm not interested in engaging with (capital n) Nationalism either...

Nah. I can understand that - it's about where you choose to put your energy.

A very English (if in an opposite) way to think of nationalism. I'm not one for unnecessary jingoistic patriotism either but your view is very much shaped by the place you live, and is a hangover from our wonderful English exceptionalism, you have that point of view because you're looking at it from the point of the "victor" of modern history and colonialism, but you focus on the bad stuff that happened or happens as a polar opposite to a to a "two world wars and one world cup" kind of nationalist. I'm with you on all that but ignoring the fact that for many people on a different end of history being proud of where they're from after another country (probably us) colonised and exploited it and diminished it's culture smacks of the very colonial arrogance you seem to dislike. The Welsh saving they're almost extinct at one point language and bring proud of that is good, other countries getting rid of old Liz as head of state dispite it causing internal issues can be a legitimate source of pride in a nation wanting to not be subject to another from across the world. I have no real problem with the SNP because they're a very different thing from the BNP or their ilk, coming from a position of relative lack of power and seeking to govern themselves in line with how most of the people there think, rather than how those in Westminster do. There's an awful lot of grey areas you're choosing to ignore. Nationalism can be shit and is ripe for abuse but it's certainly not black and white all bad.

Also a separate London can fuck off as an opinion, the country is certainly divided but it's more by urban/rural lines than London/rest of the UK, and even there there's plenty of blurred areas in both.

Saying that I know plenty of people who are just as pissed off the other way with London running the whole country seemingly in a self interested way that ignores a lot of the rest of the place. I don't agree with them either but there's probably a common problem and a more devolved local way of running most things with a nice friendly feeling of all being in the same place but that not being at the expense of others....man.

I try to balance energy preservation with a touch of humility.

I suspect post-truth has done a lot to damage people’s faith in democracy. It’s always been a problem with democracy that the village idiot’s vote is worth the same as the village’s best scientist’s, but nowadays the village seems happier to side with the idiot, at the expense of their own welfare.

I can see how a person in this climate might get especially tired of trying to convince people the earth is round, vaccines aren’t poison, billionaires aren’t your friends, climate change is real, the UK doesn’t rule the roost anymore... Hopefully they’ll take a break and then go back to fighting the good fight.

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Modern SNP at least seem to be quite liberal and progressive. I won't defend that sympathiser but there were British politicians from all parties who were supportive of Hitler at that time, all wrong obviously but not a reason to solely disagree with just one party 90 years later.

Sorry I couldn't resist!

I think it's fair to say that the SNP have diverged significantly from Prof Young's ideas.

Edit to add.. The rune logo lasted for many years...

Not my problem. I don't see theoretical positions lasting in real life, it's all compromise. It's not worth engaging with, it's like feeding the troll. I'm not saying I'm above it, just view it as a waste of time.

It's not often I express any public opinion on the subject because I have the humility to know my opinion is just one of many many different opinions and not worth much.

But I don't know, current events have got me feeling a bit like speaking out about it today. I'll try and get back to saving all the energy tomorrow.

I see that. Mine is not the best reason to try and shut down a discussion but I am really tired of the nationalistic trend in the country and thought I'd throw my toys around.

The last four years have just felt like we're all staring up at an arsehole gaping wider and wider, discussing what kind of stool to expect.

@snottyotter I am assuming your responses are aimed at my Myopic rant posting. Your reference regarding urban (more diverse opinion) vs rural (more conservative) is spot on. I also know people in Plymouth, Nottingham and Carlisle, known them a long time, and seen their struggles like the rest of the country. But my family and I have also see a lot of good people from the EU establish a life here for three solid decades. The leavers really didn’t consider their contribution in our society, the hard choice they face between what now looks like not feeling welcome and a new life back home. I say this from the comfort of living in the poorest borough in London, Newham. With high percentage of non english folk.

Not my problem. I don't see theoretical positions lasting in real life, it's all compromise. It's not worth engaging with, it's like feeding the troll. I'm not saying I'm above it, just view it as a waste of time.

I'm with you on not feeding the trolls 100% because they're not really seeking to engage, they're just seeking to enrage. But to say 'When I disagree with a theoretical position I don't engage with it' leads to only two possible conclusions. The first is that you'd rather be wrong than have your viewpoint on any issue challenged. The second is that you're absolutely sure you're completely right about every possible theoretical position, ever. Neither of which is a particularly palatable stance in my view.