EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

who the fuck does like this modern, global world though?

I do.

I moved to Paris 4 years ago. For 6 months this year I also had a job back in Yorkshire. I've got close family links to London and (prior to this year) travelled frequently between the two countries - as well as elsewhere. I've met, and continue to meet, a lot of people and I like them all. They give me a reason to live - people are great. Complex, at times difficult, stubborn, hard to understand but almost universally pleasant (oh, and I'm not blowing my own trumpet here). Of course there are those who've had more troubled times and don't know how to manage their anger. There are those who are egotistical and think they're always right. There are always rotten eggs. But in answer to your question: yes, I do like this modern, global world. It's the world I inhabit and it's the world I want to improve, in whatever (little) way I can. And I hope I can continue to do that. Please join me.

Their 'national' identity is based on what? It helps how?

It seems so simple to me. Nationalism is a dog whistle for petty patriotism. The same people who believe it's useful are likely to believe that they are better in their village than people over the county line. It's useful for politicians to manipulate people.

Look at Jamaica in the run up to independence. How it was going to change Jamaica, massive surge of nationalistic pride followed by the deepest economic depression Jamaicans could have imagined. Many years of extreme poverty and gang violence based around political parties. The nationalism dissolved without helping anyone.

I'm not really interested in discussing it ad nauseam, it seems so clear to me that discounting it as a force for good makes sense.

Came back to this thread to post exactly this. So much English nationalism seems not to want to forge a new, better version of the country, but instead drag it back to an imagined past where 'things were better'. AA Gill puts it better than I ever could.

I do, I wouldn't want to be stuck on this island with exclusively English company. No thank you.

Do you identify Catalunya as a nation? Or Scotland?

Today I don't think either are a nation, no. They might have been in the past and could be again today but aren't right now. If they were to become independent nations in the future they might have different boundaries to before too.

I sometimes think in the British Isles we are a little more convinced a nation is a fixed thing because of the sea. The people of Alsace-Lorraine might feel differently.

I'm not asking if you think they're a nation state. I'm asking if you think they're a nation.

Do you identify the Navajo nation as a nation?

I sometimes think in the British Isles we are a little more convinced a nation is a fixed thing because of the sea

Moving to an EU country with land borders was a real eye opener. I think it's a shame that most people in the UK will never really get to feel 'European' because of this.

I think the people of Alsace Lorraine wouldn't identify themselves as coming from 'Alsace Lorraine', which isn't really a thing in France. (Correct me if I'm wrong French people - I did used to live in Lorraine)

Their 'national' identity is based on what?

A series of constructed dogmas and myths about the creation of their state and the ties that unite them as a people. Yes, by definition it’s exclusionary, but being proud of ones cultural group doesn’t necessarily mean looking down on those outside the group.

It helps how?

It unites people and facilitates getting them to cooperate with each other.

For one, Mexico point to point is larger than Edinburgh to Istanbul; it has 1 official language spoken by 99% of the country, but also 350 indigenous dialects, many ethnicities and social groups, nearly every climate... Arguably thanks to its forged national identity, today it’s a single nation state without serious internal conflict (ie, between regions. Crime is another topic...). There’s enormous inequality, but it’s had fewer internal wars than half of Europe over the same space and time. Edit to add: that didn’t just happen, nation identity helped.

Good food for thought ITT. Going to investigate what theories there are for pragmatically moving past nationalism and nation states.

I did grow up here, and no-one gets to tell me that I don't belong. If you think I don't feel confident enough to tell people that to their face, you're wrong :)
Sure I do try and respect those I disagree with - I don't see that as a negative.

However I'm not holding back out of lack of confidence, I genuinely do think national identity - as a widespread social construct that people to varying degrees hold close to their own sense of identity - is more complex than just thinking England is better than the rest of the world.

And I do think reducing it down to that is dangerous in the wider sense because it gives many people no room for their own identity. I do think if we had a healthier understanding and discussion about what being English or what being British could be, in all its various forms, perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation. You say there's little intelligence to go round - I believe treating people as if they're unintelligent is more to blame, unfortunately that's something that has built up over decades.

I'm not asking if you think they're a nation state. I'm asking if you think they're a nation.

No. I don't think a nation exists beyond a nation state.

Do you identify the Navajo nation as a nation?

Not today, no. Perhaps a tribe.

No. I don't think a nation exists beyond a nation state

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation

That's not really the case

My grandparents came from bits of the world which have variously been Austro-Hungarian, Czech, German and probably some other bits. They probably felt Bohemian more than anything else but wouldn't have declared themselves a member of a Bohemian nation.

Someone mentioned colonialism - some might say Napoleon was wrong to stomp around Europe colonising various places but my gran saw him as a hero for overthrowing aristocratic dynasties.

The idea there is a single common culture in England is bonkers.

Ideally, I would like a world where we don't discriminate people on the basis of where they happen to be born or raised, where you can as easily relocate to another country as another county and where we achieve common good through co-operation and collaboration. There are aspects of the "modern, global world" that bring us closer to that ideal (EU being one of them) and aspects that work against it (regressive nationalism, global corporations that outpower governments).

How I feel right now..

Greater London to become a city state and remain in the EU, drop all subsidies to the rest of the UK.

Northern Ireland to maintain soft border with Eire and stay in the EU

Scotland to have hard border with England and stay in the EU

Wales can keep their language and do as they please, then >>>>>>>>

The rest of England can >>>>>>>>>>>

ffs like I give two hoots about fishing rights and quotas, what a bunch of c u next tuesdays..

i never said there was!

The rest of England can >>>>>>>>>>>

actually though mate? is this an actual thought you're having in your head today about the people of Plymouth and Nottingham and Carlisle? you want them to fuck off?

The Wikipedia article you linked to gives that as one option for the article. About the only one that England qualifies as a nation for is common language but last time I went to Scotland the people there were speaking English too. Sure they used some different words and accents but so does my nephew in Devon.

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib-Qiyklq-Q

What's your point though?

Sure I do try and respect those I disagree with - I don't see that as a negative.

I wouldn't disrespect someone entirely over just one aspect of their personality either. I am being a bit feisty about this. Ultimately I just see it as dangerous to allow nationalistic jingoism any more air than it's getting recently. Too many wishy washy arguments about it's ok for this reason or that. All that does is empowers the worst kind of nationalism in the dark recesses of peoples minds. We built the Spitfire because we're the greatest nation on earth sort of bullsh*t.

I just don't see an example of nationalism that doesn't have an air of superiority about it and there are plenty of other ways to galvanise people so we could just drop that one. I guess I'm just triggered!

Regarding intelligence, I call it as I see it. So many people unable to break out of very simple traps in life. Not really lazy, just working at the limit of their problem solving capacity and lacking the ability to solve anything more complex. Hanging on to a flawed model they have of how life should work because that's what they've learnt to do. Some well educated people lacking intelligence too. If people were as interested in economics or global politics as they are in 'strictly' I might change my mind.

https://mobile.twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1338068347989209089

Some shitty headlines about Germany. Crawling through broken glass... Merkel is arrogant.

This is going to potentially go badly wrong, as a German in a nasty leave voting area you can actually get attacked once Brexit goes wrong.

Really irresponsible to whip up that hatred.

My point is I don't believe England exists as a nation and neither do the other home nations. They are geographic areas that some politicians use to further their careers.