EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

^ good article. First two paras in particular are spot on.

Not surprisingly, I'm in favour if 'in' (as mostly with political choices, it is of course not really binary). However, it is certainly true that there are two sides to the EU. You have to remember that Helmut Kohl was always strongly in favour of the common market, and you have to treat anything he ever said or did with the deepest suspicion. I imagine that Tony Benn's suspicion would have been rooted partly in that.

I think that increasing the size of markets is the wrong way to go--facilitating oligopolies and reducing economic independence and diversity. I'm not advocating protectionism but I think that the larger a marketplace, the more likely it is that a few operators in it will become dominant, and I don't think that's a good thing. Economic activity should be spread out more evenly and be less concentrated so that more people benefit more equally. I also think introducing the Euro was a big mistake before intra-European economic differences were addressed. I'm not talking about anything near complete equality, but just a more stable platform on which to launch this project--some European countries only came out of ruinous military dictatorships in the 1970s, and some were (and probably are) borderline kleptocracies.

All that said, while I certainly think that Juncker is at best an unsavoury character, the European centre-right is considerably less bad than what Tossporn is doing to this country, or what Johnson might do. (He isn't really 'shrewd', as Fox says, he's just an ethical vacuum so he doesn't have many boundaries of decency, and he is extremely well-protected by those interests who want to use him as a figurehead should he ever, heaven forbid, attain another position of leadership. He merely has good comic timing on occasion and became popular because he was funny on HIGNFY. He's not a strong leader but a pushover who's in the wrong job. He belongs in the arts where he would have a worthwhile talent if he had anything interesting to say rather than trying to make himself into something he is not.)

However, the heart of the European idea obviously doesn't have anything to do with all of that but was born out of the war experience, as others have said, and that part of it is noble and just and essential to protect over everything else. It is essential not only for European but for world peace.

Also, odd that Corbyn's view hasn't been posted here yet:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/20/jeremy-corbyn-comment-britain-eu-reform

I might add to this later, there's a lot to say.

Have you become British, Irish or a citizen of another commonwealth country?

If not then your opinion does not matter as you don't get a vote. So shove that in you pipe and smoke it. Coming over here as a special propaganda agent of Frau Merkel, trying to keep us in the EU through the medium of a cycling forum.

He isn't really 'shrewd', as Fox says, he's just an ethical vacuum

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing Oliver Schick he was just an ethical vacuum rather than a massively dangerous megalomaniac.

I found this article interesting - I don't agree with everything in it, but it does cut through a lot of the bullshit and provides quite an honest assessment of the state of our relationship with the EU.

Anuschka Asthana, Political Editor from Teh Guardian is hosting a debate Tuesday 15 March..

https://membership.theguardian.com/event/guardian-live-eu-referendum-debate-20860699915?CMP=ema-2771

Should we stay or should we go?

Soon we are all going to be asked this question as the government holds a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU. Should the UK remain part of the European Union?

I’ll be hosting a debate with key figures from both camps. Arguing to stay we have former deputy prime minister Nick Clegg and head of the Labour Yes campaign Alan Johnson, while putting forward the case to leave will be leader of the UK Independence Party Nigel Farage, and more to be announced.

Join us on Tuesday 15 March at the London Palladium and do come armed with your opinions as we would love to hear from you on the night.

Good article. Ugly either way.

I think that the larger a marketplace, the more likely it is that a few operators in it will become dominant, and I don't think that's a good thing. Economic activity should be spread out more evenly and be less concentrated so that more people benefit more equally. >

How do you do that?

Also isn't there something inherently un meritocratic about redistribution of economic activity? Haven't you effectively ended up with various sectors of economic productivity where they are because those areas have built it?

How do I argue in favour of the freedom of movement? I feel like my agreement with it might be more ideological than anything else and it seems to be the most important issue for many. I think it's what will win or lose the referendum.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2014/07/01/the-uk-has-been-one-of-the-main-beneficiaries-from-free-movement-of-labour-in-the-eu/

I think it would be fair to argue that people are still feeling a squeeze as the economy is still doing so badly. Investment in large projects is low because there are no funds being given out by the government. When jobs are hard to come by, it's easy to look for someone to blame, and it's important that the EU isn't blamed for us not being able to employ everyone.

Very good, not sure I am at the same conclusion though. The outcome either way looks pretty bleak.

Still 0 clarity on what would happen to my status (working, child born here, but not married to UK citizen) if the UK leaves the EU.

In the current climate it would not surprise me if all my benefit rights get stripped even though I've worked here 13 years.

I doubt they kick me out, but no benefits is also a severe penalty, and if there are income or job scarcity caps all of a sudden a normal stay becomes a kafkaeske reapplication once a year.

An answer on UK WTF do you want from me would be nice, but it won't be known after if a brexit is voted in. And applying for citizenship is alas ££££

Clarkson in the Remain camp. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3489802/Jeremy-Clarkson-announces-wants-Britain-remain-EU-help-create-United-States-Europe.html

Johnson Sr coming out in favour of Europe:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/04/brexit-could-put-britains-environment-at-risk-says-stanley-johnson

How do I argue in favour of the freedom of movement?

Of goods or people?

If it's people then I would put it that first there is a fuzzy, unquantifiable benefit from people travelling and having exposure to different cultures. Second, for the recipient state there is a (presumably quantifiable) benefit to opening your labour pool to attract people who contribut to your GDP. Ideally these people require no initial investment (ie health, education, welfare upto the point of working age) and no ongoing net cost (ie future health/welfare). For the providing state, I am less sure, but I assume the argument would run along the lines that when the worker returns to their home/providing state they bring new skills which provide an economic benefit. They are also likely to bring back money which is spent or invested.

Also is the economy doing so badly?

Movement of people and outsiders can also shed light on a culture.

It's hard to quantity but some ppl in Northern Ireland are happy there are now fresh blood and ideas and their kids can travel and take in a new vision on society.

Closed societies are not a good thing as clearly witnessed by NI you end up stagnating. (And yes I live there...)

Brexit tracker

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-brexit-watch/

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/14/bank-of-england-warns-brexit-could-do-serious-harm-to-uk-economy

I will vote for whoever promises to never ever mention europe again. I honestly don't care if we stay or leave.

I do.

I do not want to be stuck here with the possibility of future Conservative governments that don't have the moderating force of Europe trying to keep them in check. Look how bad it is now and we're still in!

The EU has some risks regarding TTIP and other dodgy agreements...but I don't see how the UK is going to stop those on their own.
I don't trust the current lot not to sign them either.

Cameron veto'd EU Chinese steel market protection cos he's chums with them over the back of the Tata workers.

Leaving the EU with hard human rights plans, more market protectionism to keep actual jobs (rather than slagging off immigration, keep TATA to being with) and already ready trade agreements with other parts of the world dunno South America may actually be a good mix of being independent and cooperation.

I can't vote anyway as an EU national, but there may be a good Brexit. I just don't see it from Brexit team...

This is exactly my view on the matter. There are some good elements of the EU but also quite a lot of not so good elements and the EU is actually a vehicle for a lot of neoliberal deepness, see TTIP and the Greek crisis for example. George Galloway is campaigning for the out campaign on the premise that the EU is undemocratic, therefore leave EU and repatriate powers, thus allowing a progressive utopia to follow. I fear like you that it would in fact allow a more rampant city led politics that tears up some of the genuinely good EU law like human rights, employment rights and product safety etc

Checks and balances are indeed a good thing. We have very few in the British system of government, so Yerp could help hold back extreme policies, but Galloway is right, like or fucking hate the shit out of it, the people of this country chose our government and they should be in charge.

We don't need Yerp for checks and balances, we could get the same controls by reforming the Lords to something more like the US senate, or indeed the upper house in any democratic civilised country In the world except ours.

Problem is you can't trust the British Public.

Yes you °could°

But that still leaves:
No clue on trade partners
People not voting labour or greens the parties opposing such agreements

The moronic class system here that's baffled us mainland Yurp ones for ages and is becoming more destructive as time goes on...

There are massive issues now with democratic accountability every country is now struggling with.

It would need a true innovative reform in which a brexit can help if only there were a plan and brexit was lead by visionaries.

Not a cluster of ppl with no clear clue what to do with the returned powers.

Don't forget the Conservatives are busy redefining boundaries and stuffing as many of their chums and donors into the House of Lords as possible....