EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

I think my question was slightly different. I've seen many Scots say they wanted independence because they could thereby 'get rid of the Tories for ever'. My question to those Scots is, what is better about a remote 'right wing' government in Brussels formulating laws for you than a remote 'right wing' government in Westminster? Many Scots were saying they would pursue different (more left wing) laws and policies if they were independent of the UK, but their democratic ability to do so was constrained by the fact they were a minority within a broader union. Within the EU their votes would be further diluted, and they would be subject to policy and laws which many would find unpalatable (e.g. the TTIP, which has been raised by many in this thread).

Long story short, maybe one or more of the following applies:

• They don't realize the governance of the EU is just as dominated by the centre right as the governance of the UK.
  
• They think the EU is a more beneficial relationship to Scots than the Union.
  
• They wanted independence because they just hate the English, and all the above is irrelevant.
  
  

points above a bit trolly - sorry to offended Scots

Very neatly summarised, and shows a level of knowledge of the aims behind voting "yes" that seemed alien to a large section of the "no" voters I encountered during the run-up to the Indy Ref. There was a certain degree of obfuscation employed by both sides last year - and, naturally, a decent amount of media bias - that meant a lot of the quite beneficial aspects were buried under layers of spin. My worry with the Brexit vote is that, whilst in no way as emotive for me as last September, people might equate the EU as being as influential as Westminster has been up here. I grew up seeing first-hand the ruinous effect of successive Tory (and Lab) governments but see little evidence of the EU being of harm to me or the work I do. Aside from "wonky bananas" and the kind of Little Englander dross favoured by Farage et al, I think the EU has undeniable benefits for Scotland. Plus, vive la France an' aw' that.

Not trolly, just a bit reductive. We'd still have our own government; whether this would be diluted by the centre-right leaning EU Commission would be a matter for negotiation as an EU member state upon joining as an independent nation. Yes, there would inevitably be some rearrangement of how much power we could wield re: TITP etc, but the one major issue - and one of quite startling immediacy - would be the ability to scrap Trident.

Scottish Parliament have done a great job since 1997? They would be foolish to exist outside the Euro zone but the question is would they get in if brexit happens ? And I feel most scots want to be modern Europeans rather than part of uk . The centre right question is good but I think most people have no idea who runs the eu including myself ! Oddly enough snp were against European common market in 1974 and thatcher was for it . Yes scots hate the Tories and rightly so but they don't hate England !

^ ^^ All fair points.

Glad I started this thread. It's proving educational for me.

Do you mean overall? This place isn't the thread for it but no they were really weren't. I'm not talking about EU membership, I'm talking about overall outcomes. This Tory government has fucked over disabled people, junior doctors, people on benefits, gagged charities, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

The EU has successfully moderated some of their baser instincts, discriminatory policies such as not giving prisoners the vote or restricting access to benefits for EU migrants. Outside of Europe there would be much less moderation of these dumb policies because the check of European law wouldn't be there.

Good point that. Don't forget how much money can be made out of dipping into the NHS.

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/mythbusters/ is really rather informative

That article gives the impression that all these fallacies can be answered with simple facts but it's hard to accept for example that every family in the uk is £3000 better off because of Europe membership and I suspect it would be very much harder to prove.

The more I read it the more I'm thinking 'but that's just like, your point of view man'

Indeed, I enjoyed it and found it interesting. However I felt that so many of the responses must be oversimplifications of really quite complicated issues. As it happens I'm pretty sure I agree with the sentiment but it would have been nice to see more data and nuanced discussion on some of the questions. On the other hand - I'm probably not the target audience for that kind of article and I realise that the whole point is to provide neat responses to the typical soundbites.

(by Dutch cartoonist Jos Collignon)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/26/irrational-unhinged-gullible-many-who-want-britain-out-of-europe-deserve-listened

Out.

Being a bit of an Anarcho-syndicalist, the idea that people desire another level of government is pure lunacy.

I can't think of a single reason why any rational person would want to stay in the EU.

@606

I can't think of a single reason why any rational person would want to stay in the EU

Sorry to single you out, but why did you phrase it this way? I mean, clearly you're entitled to your view, but why do you think anyone who disagrees is irrational? Or is that just a bit of hyperbole that crept into emphasise your point?

Is there some way to empirically measure the moderative impact of the EU on domestic policy / legislation? I guess that would give an objective view on whether it's the Tories that are evil shitbags, or all governments that are evil shitbags.

No, single him out. It's a stupid thing to say - especially as someone who, in the sentence before, pledged allegiance to a political philosophy that relies on consensus building, open dialogue, rational debate, and all those other things that are very hard to do successfully.

That is good.
I'd like to share it, where did it come from?

Did we win yet?

In my case, living in Northern Ireland: A lot of trade is with the EU, w/o protection of the EHRC (which isn't technically part of the EU, but no doubt the Tories will also leave somehow) we are truly fkd when it comes to some things (LGBT rights/abortion access)

Unless the socialists win the elections the coming 20 years and SF and others reunite ROI/NI into a secular republic (which ROI totally is not atm see the schooling situation/8th amendment) any rights protection guarantees, bar for the religious and middle class, are out and I'm therefore happy with the moderation of the EHRC.

It was from FB but I can't find it again. :(

I have a copy on the PC I can send you?

Edit: Just right click and 'save as'?

I could do that, just wanted to credit it.
Made my morning.
Ta.

This 57% trade thing- is it suggested that a huge chunk of our trade would not be with Europe without the EU?

One position is:

The costs of the goods being bought/sold would change with the UK leaving the common market, and it is very much likely that a number of these things would become more cost-effective to manufacture on the continent, rather than import from here.

There have been a lot of arguments that the UK would sign up to the EEA, but look into what Switzerland and Norway need to do to be part of it..

I think @andyp reposted this article on Twitter earlier - for the Standard it's actually pretty good: http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anthony-hilton-stay-or-go-the-lack-of-solid-facts-means-it-s-all-a-leap-of-faith-a3189151.html

tl;dr - no-one knows anything, it's a massive leap of faith. So essentially it's an emotional/idealogical issue rather than one of economics.

That said, as the author points out - it's hard to see the UK have more clout in international economics as an individual state, rather than as part of a bigger union. We'd just get walked all over.