EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

#fascist ;)

This thread is really just a big echo chamber. A load of people in London (a reasonable proportion earning significant salaries and owning expensive houses) pointing at Brexit voters and declaring them all racist idiots. You can see why a lot of people in deprived towns thought Fuck you, what relevance does this have to us.

Any questioning of free movement of people is shouted down as racism. People point out that immigrants are net contributors to the economy without taking into account the impact on local workforces (a number of studies suggest that the net contributor figure doesn't stand up when this is taken into account).

When people look at the local factories and see what used to be reasonably paid roles gradually being replaced by foreign, non-unionised labour on the minimum wage I think they're entitled to wonder what benefits the EU has brought them.

It's become a race to the bottom in many cases, unscrupulous owners know they have a ready supply of cheap labour, often not that familiar with UK employment rules and less likely to kick up a fuss, so they can push the pay and working conditions down and replace them at will.

The response to this is generally, that isn't the EU's fault, the UK government should be doing more about it. They're not though, and haven't been for years, so what other choice did people have? If you're already at the bottom then if you shake things up the worst that can happen is you stay at the bottom. It's no coincidence that if you look at the 20 most deprived local authorities, all but a couple of them voted to Leave.

Undoubtedly some did vote leave because they were racist but the patronising response that all Brexit voters are racist or too stupid to understand.

Before the vote the lack of willingness to engage was one of the reasons that Remain lost. The continuation of that is partly contributing to the fact that most of those leave voters are still pro-leave.

Parklife!

That's the thing, it's easier to understand the mindsets of people in that position. But there were millions of people - probably the majority of the total leave population - who have lived a prosperous lifestyle for the last few decades and still voted for it.

Undoubtedly some did vote leave because they were racist but the patronising response that all Brexit voters are racist or too stupid to understand.

I haven't been following this thread long but I don't see much of that here. It's more commentary on the clusterfuck it has inevitably become and flinging poo at the carousel of cretins in charge, not voters.

Bear in mind there is no significant majority "will of the people" on Brexit, for leaving or remaining.

Yeah, have to agree. This thread is mostly clusterfuck commentary, with the occasional Brexit supporter wandering in to get the friendliest forum™ treatment, and then tell us that we are all left-wing cunts.

They're not though, and haven't been for years, so what other choice did people have? If you're already at the bottom then if you shake things up the worst that can happen is

...that you learn a new definition of 'bottom'

Just sayin'. Things can always get worse.

You could easily also argue that the Brexit voters you talk about see immigrants as less than them. Even if they are not openly racist, because most people are not.

Rather than engaging and unionising together immigrants are seen as "the problem". Poor immigrants are ripe for exploitation beyond what the local workforce would accept (which you point out)

The Greens actually DID say that in some areas, because of a fast influx of immigrants, there was more pressure on services and the gains should be more fairly distributed.

There are also possibilities to limit immigration under freedom of movement, which can be taken. I understand some of the frustrations as an EU immigrant myself who has had to put up with nearly 2 years of Brexit shit.

But if somebody cares f-all about if their immigrants colleagues will get problems due to Brexit [and I know there was an immense amount of lying about this by the Brexit team as they promised there would be no issues, which they could not promise as nobody is held to account in referendums] there is a sympathy deficit in response.

But, perhaps the leave team knew all this. They have exploited the NHS money, take back control promises and immigration lies [turkey? lol] ignoring the anger and anguish that would come when nothing was done.

And now people that think the bottom was reached may find out there is another cellar under the cellar they are in. The whole thing is massively cynical.

But I am also fedup as being "part of the problem" all the time. So this is what is has done, we are all pissed off with each other [sometimes for good reason] while Mogg is laughing all the way to his Irish funds.

That being said, Brexiters are actually morons - what did they think was going to happen with this lot in charge?

probably the majority of the total leave population

Is there any evidence for this? Genuine question.

Edit: actually 14 million people are living in poverty so I could be completely wrong.

Completely agree with this. If you are poor and in dire straights, believing that Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg are going to help you out is pretty crazy.

Racist or not, all leave voters are idiots, my mum included.

A large part of it is following the current ongoing fuck-up but there's also a decent amount of they're all racists and stupid.

I agree, believing that Johnson and Farage are going to sort things out for the working class is naive at best but no other bugger has done anything so why not give it a stab.

The disillusionment and disconnect between working class people and politicians is getting greater. If some professional politician who did PPE at Oxford is going to be parachuted into your consituency to represent you then there isn't much difference between that politician and another politician such as Rees Mogg. Neither have an understanding of the area and the issues it faces.

The leave team definitely exploited all of this. It's just a pisser that some political parties, maybe someone like the labour party, didn't recognise this issue and do something about it in the past 20 years or so.

A lot of these are casual labour, in for a few years and then home again. It's not really a situation conducive to unionising and forming a common front.

Can't argue with that. Cameron probably didn't foresee a load of legitimate resentment being funneled into this one referendum release valve (until it was too late).

I enjoyed echo-chambering in watching Stuart Lee Content Provider brexit segment.

Fruit picking is definitely casual labour, but nobody wants to do it/can do it due to where they live etc.

Is casual labour any better though for local people? Cash in hand jobs tend to come with very little protection.

I am not sure you can "fix it" with restricting immigration" either. The only real problem areas I know about are plumbers/builders etc. that now complain other immigrants do it for less. Lets say immigration is restricted, will building companies all of a sudden play nice?

Fruit picking is an extreme example as it's seasonal.

Also is the term casual labour correct? A carpenter for eg is not casual, but while at the bottom of the building hierarchy is still a skilled worker. As an example they will likely earn the same now in 2018 as in 2005.

It's not so much that "building companies" (most will be self employed) will suddenly be a nice place, but that you'd have seen a normal wage increase without the competition brought by free movement.

When I said casual labour, I was more referring to the workers in that they are here for a few years to work, not to set up a new life.

In terms of the actual jobs, I'm meaning production line, warehouse, etc

This is an example of your projection, I don’t see where he said this.

I will be antifa till the day I die. The question is: are you a facist?

I think we're reading different threads then, and no.

When I said casual labour, I was more referring to the workers in that they are here for a few years to work, not to set up a new life.

In terms of the actual jobs, I'm meaning production line, warehouse, etc

There's no questioning that there is a problem, we have nine of the ten most deprived European cities here in the UK. I agree that there is a general sense that it can't get worse, so why not - sadly this is going to be disproved, based on the available evidence.

Brexit is not the answer to "how do we revitalise the regions", it's the answer to "how do we return to a more feudal society", the trick was getting people in the regions to vote for it.

I don't pretend to have the answer to how we bring equality to UK society - equality of opportunity, education, housing etc - but I'm fairly certain that Farage doesn't have the answer.

De-centralising administration to the regions, and moving Parliament to Hull would be my two suggestions.

Me too. It was basically this thread, but funnier/lampooning itself.

In this case given that the troll was clearly a troll, I'm still struggling to see why people bothered to reply in the first place. But if they were why get so aggressive about it?

Um, hello, that's what trolling is for.

Fruit picking is "extreme" but construction also has boom/bust cycles and no guaranteed income. See the stereotype of Brexit white van man.

Many people in some sectors are also self employed which means they are outside the limited protection the UK laws offer. It comes with the territory.

I don't see the automatic link between "we make immigration hard" and "better wages".

Immigration outside the EU is already hard and controlled. Will making EU immigration hard really lift the bottom incomes?

Or a normal wage increase? I get none and I am in IT. A small bonus once a year as our division is doing well and that's it. Nurse and public sector workers are also getting done. I think those days are over (sadly)

But how to fix it I am really not sure.

The UK can do with really good economists tasked with bringing things up for all. Instead we get simple answers ATM.