MGOOF : Modern groupset on old frame

I want to hate the pink but they kinda work, what are they?

Look like TRP R960

Thought I'd post a link to my 1952 frame which I modernised with an 11 speed Campag set-up.

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=372988&start=40

20 plus more photos and build commentary on there too if anyone takes the fancy.

:)

Sand_Dune

That is absolutely stunning. Great build, beautiful bike.

I checked out the thread on the other place and was intrigued that you did the cold setting.

I am too scared to try it on my Daccordi but wish that I wasn't as getting the rear wheel in and out is a bit of a fiddle.

Any chance you could go into more detail on it?

Anyone else done it and can allay my fears? My main concern is fucking up the frame and dropout alignment. Obviously.

Top job! What patience to solve all those detailed problems!

Lovely build. I have something similar. Aren't you tempted by a wider tire?

Bravo! Does this win the thread award for gap in years between frame and groupset manufacturing? ;-)

Some admirable work done to get it all functional as well. My 1987 Ron Cooper with SRAM Force was a doddle in comparison. Great to see some of Ron's early work being given a new lease of life.

Any chance you could go into more detail on it?
Anyone else done it and can allay my fears? My main concern is fucking up the frame and dropout alignment. Obviously.

Hi there Mashton...
I can offer up my own personal experiences yes. :-)
It tickled me a bit when you asked to go into more detail though as this part of the whole build was as it turned out.....awkward. I've skimped on the detail and like all my own source references missed a whole load out. Making it look a lot easier than it actually was.

I started off with an absolute need to cold set the rear stays from the existing 120mm to 130mm. Sheldon reckons you can get away with it by springing the dropouts if you are 1 spacing width difference i.e. 126mm to 130mm. He argues the resulting risk of damage is unlikely. But a larger gap such as where I was then it needed to be done.

I was on a budget. Furthermore, I was also on a mission to do absolutely everything myself (self consumed man project mindset). The fever was high; I'd never built up a bike before, hadn't ridden a bike for the best part of 30 years although I did race as a schoolboy in the Eighties. In addition, the fever had set out that I would build the wheels tie and solder them (something else I have never done before) or die doing it. Perhaps some of you middle aged fellas will recognise the symptoms?

I digress.

'Internet' suggested this was a fairly straightforward exercise.

'Internet' lied.

I started using the threaded rod method.

(I can't seem to upload fresh piccies of my set-up. matters not - I used RJ The Bike guy's video on the same. He adjusts from 126mm to 130mm iirc, there is a link on this thread just a few pages back by Colonel of Truth.)

I successfully used this method to increase the rear-stay width to 130mm.
RJ's video covers it off very nicely. I would add that the degree the steel needs to be stressed in order to reach that yield point where it starts to set (bend) is quite significant.

1. It felt to me that you could deliver a baby horse through the rear stays during this exercise. It is a good illustration on just how bendy steel frames actually are!
   
2. Quite the force is required to take the stays to their yield point....you can really feel it through the spanners as rearstays spread.
   
3. You can feel the energy trapped in the assembly as you crank up the spread. Creaking noises happen as the threaded bar nuts and washers tense... It's just fine. (Can be very disconcerting truth be known - retrospect brings about calm)
   
   

RJ's method covers off the procedure really well. It is fairly time consuming as it's bit by bit remeasure etc. etc. I took it all fairly slowly and it took me a few hours to do. Specifically finding that point where the bending actually happens. Once you find that point then you learn and feel mm by mm the nature of what you are trying to do. For the first couple of hours I was repeating the exercise over and over and it hadn't moved! LOL. This is the right way to do it too. small steps, increment by increment.

Dead easy. 130mm spacing bang on. Make a cup of tea and check frame alignment...

I used the string method. measure the gap between the seat post and the string. All being well the gap should be the same on the left as it is on the right. Cheap and cheerful, albeit a while to set up and measure (when you do it multiple times - more on that later).

I was around 3mm off centre after that exercise. Each stay had spread at a different rate.

Here is the rub.... The threaded bar method applies equal force to each side. So there is no correcting it or control over it using this method.

I had to resort to the plank of wood method to cold set each stay independently of the other.
Sheldon offers up a picture of the same to illustrate...

He suggests anchoring the far left of the plank and applying leverage through raising the headset.
I couldn't get a suitable anchor point when I tried this. I was in my front room! It sounds okay in principle BUT the energy required to bend these stays is significant. Such anchors do not exist in my apartment! not with the length of plank required anyways!

So....I changed the method slightly so I could do it in a smaller space...with a smaller plank.

Note. in the above picture the use of books:
I squeezed them into the gap to maximise my leverage. I also used books underneath the seat tube so the assembly wasn;t putting pressure on the lower stay.

This was an ungainly arrangement. Rinse and repeat: getting a feel for the yield point by remeasuring, repacking with more books, installing string and checking alignment.

Overdoing it and reversing....a process of iteration until I was within a half mm difference alignment and at 130mm.

It took a loooong time and it was VERY tiring. see point 9 and 10 below.
This was the worse bit...over and over and over again. The setup and set down saps you.

There was a whole load of nervous tension through the exercise too. I was worried I would screw it up etc. etc. Steel is a forgiving mistress. Chill out. Worse case scenario is that you can't get the alignment to what you want it....go to your local bike shop. They will bail you out.

In summary:

1. if you are at 126mm and need 130mm leave it be. It's fine. Maybe worth checking your frame alignment in this configuration to see all is well with the 130mm wheel in situ. using the string method.
   
2. Try the threaded bar method. If your alignment is true after the event...all good. If not..
   
3. Go for the lumber and lever method.
   
4. Take it slowly and measure and check regularly. The trick is to get a feel of where the yield point is. Thereafter you can start the incremental setting of the stay. I spent most of my time finding this point (the process of removing measuring and stringing over and over again to realise you haven't moved anything any distance at all is a pain in the bum....but it is part of the process)
   
5. Steel is massively forgiving. if you overdue it....then it can be undone.
   
6. you wont snap your frame. It's fine. you aren't strong enough.
   
7. It will take quite some time and can be tiring.
   
8. The bike shop have the right tools (there is a special tool for it), experience and environment to do this very quickly at a reasonable price. Don't be ashamed to go ask them to do it for you.
   
9. Was I happy I cold-set myself? Yes I would have it no other way. You learn a lot about your frame when you go through this.
   
10. Would I cold-set again? No. see 8 above.
    
11. Would I suggest you do it yourself? No. I'd suggest going to a bike shop. I would however be quietly impressed if you had a go yourself. It's emotional!
    
    

Probably rambled on here.....

apologies if I have.

Sand_Dune

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Top job! What patience to solve all those detailed problems!

Thank you Harman. I had my other red Gillott to ride during this period so there was no rush. Odd thing was.....the build was relatively quick. The research prior to the event took several weeks and was the real time consumer.

Truth be known it has been a massively rewarding experience. Just love the old frames.

Lovely build. I have something similar. Aren't you tempted by a wider tire?

I did originally buy wider tyres as this was more fitting with my initial ideas of how the bike should look. But, I didn't like the look of the bike with them on. :(

Top tier post there, thank you so much.

Totally fascinating to hear an honest account of the process. Massive kudos to you for going through the pain and learning to get it done yourself. Also kudos for saying you wouldn't do it again!

I am at 126mm and want to go to 130mm. Points 1 and 8 seem to resonate with me. I am upset that I won't have your quiet admiration but, in absentia, I can manage without it.

Does anyone know how a bike shop can do this quickly and easily? What specialist tooling would they use?

@hillbilly is this something that Brixton Cycles can and do do?

Why would you want to cold set it? 126 to 130 is peanuts! Just chuck the wheel in 👍

No need, it's 4mm.

Also - See point 1 from @Sand_Dune
if you are at 126mm and need 130mm leave it be

Yes, as I said, "points 1 and 8 resonate with me".

But, the wheel does not just "chuck in". I have to faff a bit, yank a bit and push a bit.

Mildly irksome when at home, tinkering.

I have yet to have to do it when changing a puncture next to an a-road, in the rain and failing light, with lorries going past and 65 miles of tiredness in my legs and brain.

Also, and I think people in this thread might understand this, there is a desire for the bike to be as good as it possibly can be. To be as good, and in some ways better, than a contemporary bike.

@mashton Seabass Cycles in Camberwell can re-space a rear for you. Also nice bike, needs gumwalls tho ;)

would look the mutts nuts with these, on sale at Merlin currently in 25c size
https://www.merlincycles.com/veloflex-master-folding-road-tyres-700c-65487.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-GB&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Tyres&ucpo=448&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-ebSBRC8ARIsAGuxJIoaUTrKGJneRu3IVlDqozuafYlem48zjA9lKiiUXrzn8h5SyvDzJbsaAgkdEALw_wcB

OK. I've ordered them and will see how they look.

Thanks for the heads up.

I'll also gets a quote from Sea Bass.

Cold-setting is a pain in the arse but it's worth bothering with if you want to feel like you're doing things as properly as possible. I'll second the enormo-faff of the plank method - although it does work the best. I went from 126 to 135mm and it took me the best part of an afternoon. I found that laying it across my front steps helped me to get more leverage.

Totally worth it in the end, I get to keep my beloved touring frame AND have decent components on it.

Loving the Gillot up there, I might be tempted by panaracer gumwalls and some shiny metal muguards to finish it off.

Even a couple of mil too narrow makes fixing a flat on the road a nightmare, the more so if you have to contend with guards too

Excellent and detailed thread.
I used RJ the bike guy's rod method on a mid 80's Bob Jackson frame.
I spaced the frame out in the end to about 128mm enough to get a modern cassette hub in there. At one point, the rod method spread the frame out to 142mm! You can imagine the anxiety I felt wondering if I'd destroyed the frame!
However steel is springy and 128mm was something I could live with.
The only reason I did this was because trying to get 130mm wheels into a 126mm space when it's cold and wet and you've just punctured is not an experience I would want to repeat.

How wide did you go? 28 mm?

SeaBass have quoted me £40 to Respace the frame.

The big downer is, of course, that I will have to strip the frame then rebuild the bike afterwards. Obvious really but it hadn't occurred to me.

So, yes I will get this done, but not for a while. Too many other bike fettling jobs to get on with.

I suspect that my first bad weather puncture will be sufficient motivation to get round to it....

The first set I sourced (which I didn't like) were 630-32 (27 x 1 1/4).

How wide did you go? 28 mm?

Yup. The replacement set I sourced, on the photos are 630-28 (27 x 1 1/8).

Coupled with the tied spokes. I really like how the wheels have come out.
Tied spokes are.... just epic. Can really feel the increased stiffness of the wheels too!
But mainly...It's retro bike porn. IMHO.
EDIT: forget retro...it's anytime bike porn.

SeaBass have quoted me £40 to Respace the frame.
The big downer is, of course, that I will have to strip the frame then rebuild the bike afterwards. >Obvious really but it hadn't occurred to me.

Stripping the frame? Hmmmmmmmmm.

At most I would have thought all they would need to do is remove the crank and chainring(s), then do their magic with this fella:

Set of forks above but same principle.
Then they'd double check frame alignment and drop out alignment too and job's done. in an hour
I'm surprised that this isn't all included for £40-£60. (Admittedly, said by the man with the wooden plank.)

Great to see some of Ron's early work being given a new lease of life.

Ron has to be one of the foremost frame artisan of our time. His workmanship is beautiful. The influences he had at Gillott's in those early years served him well.

There were some master framebuilder's he served under in those days and Gillott's were pretty fastidious with their quality control too, by all accounts.

I did have a peek at your 87 bike with the SRAM. It's nice.