Custom Oak Cycles 650B French Randonneur Project.

but eventually craftsmen enter the realm of diminishing returns in the development of their own skill, and that is where Robin and his work is... each frame is almost flawless now.

You've got a great frame ed, but don't overstretch the claims.

Diminishing returns is a key phrase here I think. Do you really think that if Mather built Scobles frame that it would be at all better? Even slightly?

Mather has more experience and skill, but the relevance of that follows diminishing returns. A incredible fabricator is barely distinguishable from a very good one. If scobles bike was filled with fancy lug work all over custom components, or if there was more delicate tubing involved. Then maybe the differences would become clear. But really, there not everyone is even into that stuff. Like Ed, and other people here we would prefer a plain stem to one with intricate decoration.

I think you are suffering from a case of Velo Snob-ism.

Maybe we should consider Mather or even Richard Sachs as a past it hack, because he doesn't have the skills to build composite frames like a Taiwanese factory can, and he cannot provide the same the same function:cost ratio as other people. Which is an important skill for a fabrication engineer of any sort. A bike builder is one of these, not an artist or sculptor.

But the problem with your point is that Ed's bike is already waaaay down the diminishing returns path.

Neat welding and filing would be better than all that extra heavy brazing and lugs.

Maybe we should consider Mather or even Richard Sachs as a past it hack

Anyway I still think that gorgeous baby blue RM "Camponneur" is fucking hideous as a whole.

The stem on it is an eyesore

The stem on it is an eyesore

Diminishing returns is a key phrase here I think. Do you really think that if Mather built Scobles frame that it would be at all better?

Yes.

And if ed didn't believe in the skill of a craftsman, then he still could've got a custom frame from one of the larger manufacturers.

What you get from a craftsman is an object with a story. You become part of the craftsman's story of his development and refinement of his craft.

It's widely acknowledged, academically and anecdotally, that to become a master takes 10,000 hours of practise. Ryan is a few thousand hours in, and watching his work evolve is a wonderful thing... every frame is better than the prior.

But Robin Mather, and people like Richard Sachs, Sacha White... they're beyond the 10,000 hours and it shows. The craft is mastered, and the places they now look for the incremental improvements are so subtle, so slight... that it's barely perceivable. Yet still, every frame is better than the prior, but now only other craftsmen really appreciate this.

As to your question, would a frame built by someone who is a mature and recognised craftsman likely to be an improvement over a frame built by someone still quite early into mastering their craft... of course.

I wasn't knocking the work of Ryan, I was knocking the comparison that doesn't acknowledge the master craftsman. One day Ryan will be a master craftsman too, and I'll equally defend his work and skill at that time. In the meantime, watching Ryan's craftsmanship evolve is a real pleasure.

^^Wouldn't have that mather stem on my bike if you paid me, prefer mine everytime. It doesn't look out of place with the silver seat post and the rest of the groupset

it's even more practical, what's not to love?

^Post follow-up bike-fit pic

You've put the rack on wrong.

I was quite aware of Ryan's history, or lack thereof, and decided to trust him with a complex build, his recent work speak for itself, it's very much a gamble to trust someone who never made a French inspired randonneur bicycle before, let alone the 650B wheels with large tyres.

I can't really go to says Bob Jackson whose Audax differ massively to how I want it, they were quite sure that the geometry would be unsuitable and that their is idea.

I can't afford the like of Robin Mather, even thought I knew due to his history, I can trust that the bicycle he'd make fit exactly what I want (not that the Oak doesn't) long before I have a chance to speak to him.

I took a risk with Ryan, and now I'm glad I did.

It's widely acknowledged, academically and anecdotally, that to become a master takes 10,000 hours of practise

I thought it was done by number of frames?

You've put the rack on wrong.

I have? :S

I thought it was done by number of frames?

Amounts to the same thing given each frame takes on average X time.

Exception made for Tom Demon as he spends far too much time filing lugs and so fewer frames make up the same hours.

I have? :S

Correct rack installation.

-.-

Rob English is killing everyone right now.

Depends what you go in for.

Rob English is innovating like no-one else... but for me the innovation isn't the craft, and Richard Sachs' total mastering of 1 type of bike is the real pinnacle.

That may not make for exciting photos show after show, and it's fairly true that if you've seen one Sachs you've seen them all... but this is a total perfectionist mastering one thing and doing that so well that it's pretty much faultless.

Whereas Rob English, who produces some unbelievable frames, can be fairly divisive in his choices, and one can see those choices being re-considered and changed on subsequent frames. It is totally world-beating innovation and daring design, and Rob is a master craftsman... but my personal thing is the Richard Sachs approach of just doing one thing well.

^ with you on that. It's been interesting to see Ricky Feather go from copying lots of bits and pieces from other people as he learns and settle a little bit into doing certain things in certain ways, but really, really well.

Tom Donhou has really come on in the last year as well IMO.

Rob English has done a few bikes that don't make total sense to me but Scott's machine was a fantastic response to the brief, IMO. And that's the point, isn't it? You get to choose the right builder and you end up with a bike that's unique, part you and part them. Your appreciation of the builder's work is part of your relationship with the bike. Sometimes it's very functional and sometimes it's very aesthetic. Both are valid reasons to get a custom.

You summed it up nicely, I'm more than happy with the final build of my Oak which met my expectation, only one thing left is to ride it.

... every frame is better than the prior..

Ergo, Neil's will be better than Ed's. Hard lines, Ed.

which met my expectation

A glowing reference.

Diminishing returns is a key phrase here I think. Do you really think that if Mather built Scobles frame that it would be at all better? Even slightly?

Mather has more experience and skill, but the relevance of that follows diminishing returns. A incredible fabricator is barely distinguishable from a very good one. If scobles bike was filled with fancy lug work all over custom components, or if there was more delicate tubing involved. Then maybe the differences would become clear. But really, there not everyone is even into that stuff. Like Ed, and other people here we would prefer a plain stem to one with intricate decoration.

I think you are suffering from a case of Velo Snob-ism.

Maybe we should consider Mather or even Richard Sachs as a past it hack, because he doesn't have the skills to build composite frames like a Taiwanese factory can, and he cannot provide the same the same function:cost ratio as other people. Which is an important skill for a fabrication engineer of any sort. A bike builder is one of these, not an artist or sculptor.

I would have agreed with most of that had I not been to Bespoked last year. I don't know enough about building bike frames to know really what I'm looking at or why Robin's bikes are so special. But they are, every one I've seen in the flesh. And it's not flashy lugs that do it, maybe it's proportions. Maybe it's details I'm barely noticing. They're lovely.

I like Lee Cooper's bikes too.

Yes.

And if ed didn't believe in the skill of a craftsman, then he still could've got a custom frame from one of the larger manufacturers.....

.....One day Ryan will be a master craftsman too, and I'll equally defend his work and skill at that time. In the meantime, watching Ryan's craftsmanship evolve is a real pleasure.

Do you really think there is anything noticeably "lacking" on Ed's bike? He got what he asked for. I realise there is a difference between a "master" and someone who is very good at something. But it is so subtle and would only come out in the most challenging tasks/situations, ones that are uncommon and perhaps irrelevant.

If you consider a master bike mechanic and someone just starting out. Which one can change a tyre "better" ?

The definition of "better" becomes irrelevant because for both mechanics it is the "basics". For all you know, the upstart could change the tyre faster and more finesse. The amount of times either of them has done it is meaningless as long as they have done it enough times to get it right. Which is like, once or twice for most of us!

Maybe Oak took a little longer than mather would have to make the same thing, maybe he made messier joints which required more filing. (this is pure speculation and probably not true) It does not matter because none of it will be noticeable in the end product.

The end product is the same, exactly what Ed asked for.

Depends what you go in for.

Rob English is innovating like no-one else... but for me the innovation isn't the craft, and Richard Sachs' total mastering of 1 type of bike is the real pinnacle.
l.

Innovation is where a "master" can shine brighter than a very good craftsperson. Robs pencil tubing leaves a very small margin of error structurally. Things to be very carefully thought out in uncharted territory and put together with greater care.

Also, when building something more complex in general, larger with more parts and more margin to "perfect" like some kind of 4wd quadracycle, all but the very best eingineers and craftspeople will be left in the dust. There is such a big difference the possible outcomes. Cost of materials, time, weight, mechanically efficiency, ride quality, construction time, durability, maintainability - it is immense.

But a humble "safe" traditional diamond bicycle frame? It is just the basics. Like the surgical difference between a boob job and a lung transplant.

My 3 year old boy has a thing for pink.

I like to think his empathy for the fairer sex will get him laid alot when hes older.

......or maybe he'll keep wearing the disney princess outfits.

I have to comment as someone that was female up until ten weeks in...and the wash of testosterone...didn't really happen...So I stayed 2/3 rds female...
I have to agree with Nhatt as well, being from a family of women who helped drag race motorcycles.
Tho...I'm particularly pleased with small furrys quote...

Don't worry baba...I'm sure regardless of whether he stays with pink...or wears the princess disney princess outfits...

If he's a Nancy boy,...don't be alarmed....He's going to fuck a lot of everyone...;D regardless of gender...with either their minds....or their bodies...

By the way ed...nice bike...Stay with uber french...as long as you have those beautiful mudguards, and brick red tyres...it'll be lovely...tho yes..the cranks are ugly...just wang some ta's on it...