#VoteBike - 2012 London Mayoral elections

I think a lot of Jews mix up anti Zionism with anti semitism and he fell foul of that. Attacking an country occupying another self defining group the Palestinians fits in with his left politics. Attacking Israeli politics is not anti Semitic

^^^ Take home message: no smoke without fire.

Meanwhile Boris is burning down city hall (Or rather sitting on his arse, making soundbites, and letting the press sort out the election for him, but that doesn't fit in with the metaphor).

Can we have one that sits on his arse and keeps his stupid mouth shut for 4 years?

If you were to examine the context of Johnson's picaninnies comment you would see that in fact he was using the word as part of attributing a certain patronising attitude towards foreign countries to Tony Blair. It was clear that it wasn't his attitude but one he supposed Blair to have.

If you look at Livingstone's words in their proper context it is clear that he dismisses Jews as rich Tories, and it is indicative of his own prejudices.

What? When Boris says piccanniny he's a wit and a humourist, yet Ken in an apparent quote it is clear he's an anti-Semite?

How about Johnson's phone call asking for a Journo to be roughed up a bit? Satirical roughing up was it?

No one has moved beyond half truths and hearsay in their criticism of Livingstone on this thread. I dislike Johnson both because he's a prick and because of his politics. He's has done next to nothing in his time as mayor, and, amongst other things, has actively opposed measures to make cycling safer. The same could not be said of Livingstone.

maybe ken is or isnt anti semitic,

The way he embraced and backed Sheikh Al-Qaradawi was pretty awful in my view especially as he was Mayor of London at the time and was meant to represent all Londoners. Since he has said that he doesnt agree with him about Israel but as al Qaradawi is hugely known for his fairly anti-semitic and controversial views on Israel, why did he make such a show of supporting him?

So after all that you are not even saying he* is *an anti-semite?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh1ep7jC_oQ

And you'll be aware that Boris' party, the party you support, were happy to ally with some of the most bigoted politicians in Europe in the European parliament.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/22/tories-rightwing-group-europe

Sorry. That is nonsense.

a) would like to see stats backing that statement up
b) take offence at that comment and see it as a load of shit and fairly racist

To cliveo and punkture - I think your right. Sorry. My previous post wan't fair. I don't have any data to back up what I said and so I'm embarrassed I even thought it.

However I think it's totally ok to make observations and correlations about populations but I didn't have any data. Of what I said I am only confident that wealth inversely correlates with support for Labour.

I would agree that Johnson has done very little for cyclists and im generally disappointed in him as a mayor. However, while its not an excuse, I cant imagine that he has an enormous budget to implement sweeping change. However, im very doubtful whether ill vote for him or just waste my votes on the independent candidates.

@neu I dont think that my criticism (in my last post) of Ken is based on half-truth and hearsay. I think it is absolutely unheathly for any democracy to have someone in power for more than 2 terms. It was wrong with Thatcher,wrong with Blair and on a more local level would be wrong with Livingstone. He did do good things when in power, especially for cyclists, but so many things were not ok. His squandering of money by setting up offices in India and China, his 'Mayor's newspaper' propaganda rag. bendy busses, endorsment of a succession of incredibly controversial foreign political figures when it really wasnt his position to do so.

Transport fares went up when he was mayor too and the tube was just as shit as it is now. In a recession they have gone up more yet he suddenly claims he is going to lower them by 7% when Tfl's figures say that it is not possible unless he slams prices up by almost 40% in 3 years.

I dont trust him, I think Johnson isnt particularly good. rock and a hard place but im not voting for someone who i fundamentally dont trust

Bendy buses, I knew there was something else I wanted to rant about.

They were such an easy target for BJ to go on some fucking ridiculous crusade about, wasting a shitload of money in the the process and contributing to the extortionate fare prices we have now. If the buses were the problem, how is it that better-run cities like Berlin can get along fine with bendy buses, and Zürich, one of the cities in Europe with the highest standard of living, can have buses with two bends?
And if they're so dangerous and he wants to rescue us poor cyclists, why the fuck do you allow even longer HGVs than before into the city.

Also, transport fares went down when Livingstone was mayor, I remember that well. If it's a question of budgeting problems that has made BJ so cavalier when it comes to cyclists' lives, why did he abolish the western extension of the congestion charging zone?

Everything he does is ideologically motivated towards cars and capitalism

To cliveo and punkture - I think your right. Sorry. My previous post wan't fair. I don't have any data to back up what I said and so I'm embarrassed I even thought it.

ok, thanks for the apology

@will Livingstone's words in that video are commendable, but of all the imams and preachers in the islamic world he had to choose Al-Qaradawi??? and endorse him so openly and enthusiastically? when he has the history that he has and has said what he has said?

I have no idea whether Livingstone (Im not calling them by their first names, fucking 'personality politics') is anti semite. I would hope that on balance he probably isnt. I have a problem with his support of such figures when he represents me as mayor of london and wont vote for him because he puts such people on a pedestal as one reason.

And you'll be aware that Boris' party, the party you support, were happy to ally with some of the most bigoted politicians in Europe in the European parliament.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/22/tories-rightwing-group-europe

indeed, I am very much opposed to Cameron's European policy, its foolish and narrow minded beyond belief

ok, thanks for the apology

I'm really shaken up actually, I pride myself on being open and fair and I believe in equality. The idea that I read Ken's statement about a religious group and happily accepted it without question is alarming.

"I didn't say that. Someone posed the question to me, 'Why don't more Jewish people vote for you?' I started to say, 'No group votes as a whole. The main determining factor in how everybody votes – the overwhelming majority – is income levels.'

A clever, politicians answer. It does however, indicate a certain assumption, though of course he doesnt specifically voice it there.

Since you have put it in quotes you must be able to tell us where and when he *said *this? I mean, actually said it rather than it being something else he said that has been paraphrased.

What? When Boris says piccanniny he's a wit and a humourist, yet Ken in an apparent quote it is clear he's an anti-Semite?

No one has moved beyond half truths and hearsay in their criticism of Livingstone on this thread.

I'm really shaken up actually, I pride myself on being open and fair and I believe in equality. The idea that I read Ken's statement about a religious group and happily accepted it without question is alarming.

interesting isnt it? How important is a direct quote really in the world of politics? Do you think Livingstone is unaware of what he is saying? and how it will play with various percentages of the electorate?

(@Dan, not getting at you here, your further comments make it obvious youre not an anti-semite)

Yeah, it's really interesting. Good politicians play a cool calculated game where every word has an impact (obvious or hidden).

Apparently I just blurt out any old shite in the blind hope that I can persuade someone not to vote for Boris!

Very interesting, and makes about as much sense as a mumsnet discussion on MMR.

Transport fares went up when he was mayor too and the tube was just as shit as it is now. In a recession they have gone up more yet he suddenly claims he is going to lower them by 7% when Tfl's figures say that it is not possible unless he slams prices up by almost 40% in 3 years.

Thanks to the (now failed and defunct) PPP contracts let before he got into power, the Tube was largely out of his control. He did have control over the buses, and as far as i can tell he transformed the service. (I was only an occasional visitor to london before 2001.)

I do worry about his 7% promise, as the Tube has needed a vast amount of investment to catch up with the decades of neglect and it would be a tragedy not to finish that process.

I too am bemused by some people's attitude to Ken - the hatred seems out of all proportion to anything he's done. It feels like they have a desperate need to hate him that comes from somewhere else, and when challenged they grasp at rationalisations.

Is it because he's got a funny voice?

I'm too young to remember the GLC days, but he had a majority for his 1st couple of mayoral terms then the turnout rocketed in the 2008 election due to the hugely negative Boris/Evening Standard campaign. I can only assume all the negativity around Livingstone is due to that.

http://www.londonersonbikes.org.uk/candidates - Londoners on Bikes now have interviews with 2/4 main candidates up, We're speaking to Brian Paddick on Monday, and are waiting for confirmation from Boris about an interview with him

I remember the GLC days neu! I was doing a 100 mile a week commute and living on kidney beans and bread and Ken proposed an increase in council tax from £80 to £500 so that people could lounge on buses for nothing. I told Bromley Council I would rather go to prison than pay. They took him to court and he lost. One of the happiest days of my life.

For anyone else wondering what to google to get a bit more background on Titivulus' anecdote, it seems the policy was called "Fairs Fair", and dates from 1981.

I still don't understand why people can't just say they oppose Ken on ideological grounds instead of fuming and spluttering with hatred.

The people who can just say they oppose Ken on idealogical grounds are probably not the ones grinding themselves into the ground through hard physical work for practically nothing.

Would you like to expand your opaque assertion into an argument that can be followed?

Two introductory points.

I would never vote for Johnson or Paddick.

That said, I cannot vote for Livingston.

Livingston is decisive.

He stood against the official Labout candidate 12 years ago thus turning his back on the party which he purports to follow. Most recently he campaigned against an official Labour candidate in the Tower Hamlets election.

I do not think that the Labour Party should support him. I most certainly won't.

His various antisemetic rants, however couched as "jokes", are intolerable.

He is dismissive of the very type of person that he himself is. He deplores middle class white people and excludes them at every turn. His is a London for the marginalised not a London for all Londoners. I believe strongly that every minority must be embraced because I believe that every individual must be embraced. Livingston does not. He divides. He rejects middle class white people (and Jewish people and probably a few other categories of people) and just embraces those that he wishes to embrace. The pick and mix of harmony.

Livingston is, in reality, just about himself and he will harm anyone, harm London, to promote himself.

I believe that every individual must be embraced.
So, Chainbreaker for Mayor then?

Two introductory points.

I would never vote for Johnson or Paddick.

That said, I cannot vote for Livingston.

Livingston is decisive.

He stood against the official Labout candidate 12 years ago thus turning his back on the party which he purports to follow. Most recently he campaigned against an official Labour candidate in the Tower Hamlets election.

I do not think that the Labour Party should support him. I most certainly won't.

His various antisemetic rants, however couched as "jokes", are intolerable.

He is dismissive of the very type of person that he himself is. He deplores middle class white people and excludes them at every turn. His is a London for the marginalised not a London for all Londoners. I believe strongly that every minority must be embraced because I believe that every individual must be embraced. Livingston does not. He divides. He rejects middle class white people (and Jewish people and probably a few other categories of people) and just embraces those that he wishes to embrace. The pick and mix of harmony.

Livingston is, in reality, just about himself and he will harm anyone, harm London, to promote himself.

I think this is a symptom of the fact we are electing a Mayor. Having so much power in one office must be the reason the Mayoral candidates are often so self-important or egotistic.

It's such a shame that the Mayor tends to overshadow the London assembly which is full of less famous, less egotistic politicians who are experts in their field. Why do we need one all powerful personality?

I'd ditch the Mayoral system, say good bye to Boris and Ken and give the power to the assembly. The same way parliament works and the same way most councils work. If there is no fame or fortune to seek London would be run by people who are there for the right reasons and we wouldnt have to bother with all this personality politics.