Tourney: UK & Ireland Regional Euro Qualifiers - Newington - 2012/06/03

If you lose early and avoid the top teams (if you know you're not top 5) then you're likely to be less fatigued/injured than other teams and you'll also have to play less games all day (again fatigue/injury/etc). This depends on carrying SR results into RR as you suggested.

I don't want to get into the maths of it too much, but how are we going to seed the top 5? The Euro organisers will almost certainly want some sort of seeding.

I also wish to express my deep disapproval of John's proposal. We have the best teams in the country to play polo at a tournament, and I don't get to play them after the 5th round? This seems wrong. Surely the whole point of polo tournaments is to play polo against the best teams?

This whole process has been not right. I didn't agree with discouraging teams from showing up to play, based on some abitrary "we're not good enough" self-selection, and now this? I honestly would rather not play at all, than submit to this. It just seems wrong.

Nope, Swiss rounds is a very bad system for ranking the mid table, which is what is important here.

It's important to you, but I am sure that ranking 1 - 4 will be really important for those teams, and may well have an effect on what group, or what team they play in their first game in swiss rounds.

Apparently Greg isn't going to seed the Euros (which seems like an odd decision and we have had no official word from greg, but if true it negates the need for an accurate top whatever).

Cutting teams is lame, at least cut the bottom teams instead (kidding).

110 games X 15 mins X 2 courts = 13.75 hours. This is what we're looking at in a 15 team round-robin, no? Start at 8, and we can get through this by 10pm.

10 minute games, 2 minute turn over = 12 hours?

I don't want to get into the maths of it too much, but how are we going to seed the top 5? The Euro organisers will almost certainly want some sort of seeding.

Greg told me just sending him 7 team names is fine.

I also wish to express my deep disapproval of John's proposal. We have the best teams in the country to play polo at a tournament, and I don't get to play them after the 5th round? This seems wrong. Surely the whole point of polo tournaments is to play polo against the best teams?

No that's not the point at all. The point is to find the best 7 teams (and next best 3 teams). It's not a training exercise for the teams involved. You can organise that in your own time.

The formula on number of games:

(N)*(N-1)/2(eliminates home and away)/2(two courts)*10(minutes, 12? 15?)/60 = hours

If N = odd, then:

(N+1)*(N)/2(eliminates home and away)/2(two courts)*10(minutes, 12? 15?)/60 = hours

#geek

110 games X 15 mins X 2 courts = 13.75 hours. This is what we're looking at in a 15 team round-robin, no? Start at 8, and we can get through this by 10pm.

I can't see that going down well with non London teams.

But you know what, I really can't be bothered with this shit any more. My initial thoughts on formatting, and the reasons for it have been up for weeks now, yet only now do some of the more vocal forum members question it, with only a few days to go.

I'm fed up with having to justify every single decision now, when you've had ages to give your input to the UKHPBA. Also the UKHBPA are staying very quiet on all this, and in general not giving me any support.

As such I'm resigning as organiser of the qualifiers, the UKHBPA can find someone else to do it, I'm just going to concentrate on playing.

No that's not the point at all. The point is to find the best 7 teams (and next best 3 teams). It's not a training exercise for the teams involved. You can organise that in your own time.

I'm sorry, I don't agree, and I'm not convinced that what you're suggesting will give us the best 7 teams.

Surely it is not as simple as is suggested to delete results against the emerging top 4 when the format changes to RR? Mid-table teams may feel they should 'conserve energy'/avoid injury etc. if, when drawn against a probable top 4 team, they decide to roll over in the Swiss element (rather than fight tooth'n'nail for a heroic draw) and if there was to be any doubt, then the format is not robust, fair or accurate when compared to a full RR tournament.

Rolling over the first 4 or 5 rounds of Swiss is indeed unfair, you will leave some teams (midtable) playing more games at the end of the day than some other.

Surely it is not as simple as is suggested to delete results against the emerging top 4 when the format changes to RR? Mid-table teams may feel they should 'conserve energy'/avoid injury etc. if, when drawn against a probable top 4 team, they decide to roll over in the Swiss element (rather than fight tooth'n'nail for a heroic draw) and if there was to be any doubt, then the format is not robust, fair or accurate when compared to a full RR tournament.

Right, my final words on this.

Of course RR is the fairest format, and anything else is a compromise.

But the UKHBPA gave me certain parameters, and I simply don't have the confidence that we have the time to do RR with those parameters. I can't stand behind a format which I believe has a significant risk of failure.

I'm very frustrated that I'm having to justify decisions made by the UKHBPA that I don't agree with (no-one from the UKHBPA is coming out to back up why those decision were made), and I've spent a lot of time coming up with what in why mind is the best compromise solution, but people are just ignoring that, and focussing on it's faults. I know it's not perfect, but I challenge you to come up with something that would work better. And while I appreciate some people are trying to be constructive, the comments about it could have been raised in the 3 weeks since I first posted about format, rather than a week before.

1) Non London teams want to be able to get to London and back on the same day
2) 2 courts which we may struggle to hold onto for a whole day
3) 15 teams

Anyway, I'm having nothing to do with this any more. I hope the UKHBPA appoint someone else to deal with this, and they do a good job of it, and everyone is happy with the teams that get sent to France, I'm looking forward to playing in the qualifiers.

I'm sorry, I don't agree, and I'm not convinced that what you're suggesting will give us the best 7 teams.

Are you mental or taking the piss?

You don't agree that the euro qualifiers are about finding the best 7 and next best 3 in the most accurate manor?

And John is right a pure Swiss rounds won't work for this.

I can't see that going down well with non London teams.

Suits me, we've already booked a hotel for Saturday and Sunday night. Can't give 100% if I've woken up at 4am.

come on john, don't be a quitter! Have you ever read anything on the polo forum that was unanimously agreed upon? You know what you are up against the moment you said you'd organise this. In other news i have a set of goals in my garage, i can bring them down to newt to ryans workshop if he's ok with that. We just need to get another set form the orwell. Not sure the netting is very good though.

I can't see that going down well with non London teams.

But you know what, I really can't be bothered with this shit any more. My initial thoughts on formatting, and the reasons for it have been up for weeks now, yet only now do some of the more vocal forum members question it, with only a few days to go.

I'm fed up with having to justify every single decision now, when you've had ages to give your input to the UKHPBA. Also the UKHBPA are staying very quiet on all this, and in general not giving me any support.

As such I'm resigning as organiser of the qualifiers, the UKHBPA can find someone else to do it, I'm just going to concentrate on playing.

I think that's regrettable, and not especially helpful. I'm sorry that you feel overly-criticised, and I am very sorry that you don't feel that you have been supported.

I empathise with your current sentiments John and know from an organiser's perspective that you can't please most of the people most of the time, however is it not naive of all of us to expect the fledgling UKBHPA to be able to fast track its collective maturity and lead on or resolve such an issue at this early stage of its development?

As a matter of expediency can I suggest that the IP, for want of a better description, of the qualies event 2012 passes to the hands of the registered teams/players as a group. From this point on we can work independently to ensure that those teams are satisfied with the resultant process.

I haven't seen formats other than those you thoughtfully prepared and published, so could we not (re)run the poll amongst the registered teams only (not UKHBPA reps, of which probably only 2/14 have a 'live' or vested/personal interest in this issue) and make some speedy and self determined progress?

I'm confident we'd have a quick resolution from which you would feel confident and supported by the actual players to continue to organise the runnings of the qualification event. If not, then we as a group should step up and self-manage the day.

As I see it, there are relatively only a few non-London teams/individual players registered - can we check on/record their accommodation/travel arrangements before we accept that as a reason to not go with the full RR/or other longer formats? We (5G), for example, are arriving Saturday night and staying over on Sunday night to cover this eventuality. Others?

Is it too late to properly book these courts btw to remove that obstacle too?

Non-Londoners can't afford for this to fail at the last minute - we've a 425 mile round trip and at least £300 of expenditure already invested/non-returnable and I'm sure Ireland will have much more than that.

We can still get this done. I can pick up the goals from the orwell on friday. I can get some of the first round of sweeping done on wednesday before souths i can recruit emmet he loves to sweep.

Where do you get nets from? anyone know of a pick up in london?

i mentioned to a few european players about our qualifer this wkend. They laughed and said why..why would you try get it done in one day with that many teams! I'm up for mashing out RR leo sayer but i can understand why its a bad idea.

what else do we need that day?

we will have the courts neil. Especially if everyone is there super early so we can start playing at 9am. Ideally we will have players there at 8am (calling londoners!)

I reckon we can get the key games done, as in if people need to leave can play them all. Lights till 10:30pm can always finish monday.

I'll help sweep on Saturday.

My preference would be for round robin, and having games on Saturday or Monday if we cannot get all the games done in one day.

Anyway, that has all been said....

The courts really do need a thorough sweep.
I am happy to do it on Wednesday and again on Saturday. Does anyone have any hard bristled brushes? Ryan has three, but only two are really effective, and obviously with a lot of hands the job becomes much easier.

Also, as Bill has mentioned, we need some hot weather balls and ice.

^ Manchester will bring our 2 x new nylon brooms and can sweep with the best of them... we can go to Newington on saturday evening and can bring a set of goals/one laminated scoreboard if required, although getting tight on car space (as Boris won't let the persecuted polobus into the precious capital anymore).

come on john, don't be a quitter! Have you ever read anything on the polo forum that was unanimously agreed upon? You know what you are up against the moment you said you'd organise this. In other news i have a set of goals in my garage, i can bring them down to newt to ryans workshop if he's ok with that. We just need to get another set form the orwell. Not sure the netting is very good though.

I'm only quitting in terms of format. If the UKHBPA, or the tournament players, or someone with some sort of authority comes up with a format that players are happy with, and I'm happy to run, then I'll run it on the day, and make sure to hand out jobs to people to get everything down, I just don't have the time to go through the same endless arguments when I've spent weeks researching and coming up with a format which, IMO, best matches the parameters we've been given.

Thanks for the offer of the goals. That would certainly help out, in terms of only having to get one set of goals down from the Orwell. What are your goals like, we should make sure they are at least similar to the LHBPA ones. Do you know what the dimensions are? We have nets in the Orwell for enough goals.

I can get my trailer from Ryans on Tuesday and collect some goals Thursday from the Orwell for delivery Sunday?