Cycling-Related Strength & Conditioning

jayloo - how long is your commute in the morning?

6.5 miles. Horniman Museum hill and Bromley Hill. I know they're not much, but it's still getting to me. On Wednesdays four times a day over HM hill if I don't take the train in the morning. I'm knackered! And my husband is shocked by how much food I eat. Still don't think it's a lot.

@jayloo - I feel like my quads are not strong enough yet at kicking over the top and down (11 o' clock to 3 o' clock). It would be nice to give my glutes some backup :D Have reverted to overgeared work for this.

Regarding PNF, after the initial 20 second stretch, I'm basically contracting the agonist against the stretch for about 5 seconds, then pausing for a second or so till I feel everything settle (that sounds scientific, not), before going into the second static - and deeper - stretch phase.

Ah, gotcha, I was thinking CRAC, instead. Haven't done any facilitated stretching in a long while.

That makes A LOT of sense to me. I've been reading some of this and it's heavily physio for me (I'm a massage therapist, I wasn't trained about exercises, I just have been able to figure out how to deal with the results of injuries and notice potential patterns in movement that might be causing weakness and/or overshort muscles.

I was thinking about this, too, and this seems strange to me. If by "stomp phase" you mean pressing down, I know you use the quads then a bit, but extension is a hamstring/glute thing, flexion is quads. I get more burn in my quads when I purposefully pull up on the pedals or stand up out of the saddle.

I have really been wanting to work with a physio or sports trainer about how to get more power in cycling, I have a few smaller hills that are still kicking my ass. When I take the train in the morning I'm magically refreshed all day but when I ride in I'm often more tired. There is obviously some combination of amount of calories taken in, riding fixed, gear ratio, how fast I ride, and probably something I don't know about, that is killing my energy levels. I want to get faster, I want to ride more easily, I want to be able to get to the top of Bromley Hill without slowing down as much as I have been, and I want not to collapse on the couch at the end of the day. I've got to go back to geared, especially for winter, but I am still missing a few key components (such as a frickin' 90mm 1" quill stem, that everyone wants and no one has) so can't get it out on the road.

The "stomp" bit you speak of is quad dominant for sure. The last part of a knee extension is often recommended by physiotherapists for developing the vastus medialis which is largely responsible for the last part of extension.

The quads extend the knee. The hamstrings & glutes extend the hip. The latter two do this primarily when the hip is right up in flexion, with the knee parallel or higher compared to the hip joint.

When cycling normally on bike, the knees never get very bent. So the pedalling motion is mostly the quads extending the knee.

If you ride clipped in, you can "Scrape back" on pedals at the bottom of their (orbit?) to utilise the hamstrings more. If you have active glutes you can focus on enaging them for the push down during a short power burst. But its difficult to maintain considerable glute contribution for more than a short time.

When going up hill it raises the height of the knee in comparison the the hip engaging the hamstrings and glutes better. I believe sliding back in the seat has the same effect by moving your feet forwards compared to your hips reducing the dominance of knee bend but increasing the contribution of the hip extension. When getting out of the saddle and heaving the bike about it can go a step further by using both upper body strength and adductors.

you can "Scrape back" on pedals at the bottom of their **(orbit?) **

revolution?

/pedant

I get more burn in my quads when I purposefully pull up on the pedals or stand up out of the saddle.
.

Felt like adding some more specific detail.

You'd get more "burn" because in a typical out of seat position the riders body moves forwards. This puts their hips either directly above or slightly in front of the cranks. The further forwards you are the more difficult it is for hamstrings to contribute. The primary mover becomes the quads extending the knee, and whats more is that your body weight is supported on the tension of the quads because the knees are left totally unlocked. So the quads are getting heavily fatigued by this supporting role even while it is the opposite leg pressing down.

If you actively push the pedal forwards at the top of the revolution, the motion is similar to kicking. Again, the quads are heavily worked to begin extending the knee at very difficult leverage.

The "stomp" bit you speak of is quad dominant for sure. The last part of a knee extension is often recommended by physiotherapists for developing the vastus medialis which is largely responsible for the last part of extension.

This is why I wished I had been able to skip out on shiatsu and double or triple up on assessment and kinesiology. Is there an image or several of bike position and pedal stroke and what muscles are in use during which portion?

The quads extend the knee. The hamstrings & glutes extend the hip. The latter two do this primarily when the hip is right up in flexion, with the knee parallel or higher compared to the hip joint.

When cycling normally on bike, the knees never get very bent. So the pedalling motion is mostly the quads extending the knee.

If you ride clipped in, you can "Scrape back" on pedals at the bottom of their (orbit?) to utilise the hamstrings more. If you have active glutes you can focus on enaging them for the push down during a short power burst. But its difficult to maintain considerable glute contribution for more than a short time.

Dur. knee extension. I'm mostly used to thinking of them as hip flexors. I think mostly about people who sit on couches and at desks and use them as hip stabilizers. However, of course, a test for shortened quads is an obtuse knee angle with lower leg over end of table and hip stabilized.

When going up hill it raises the height of the knee in comparison the the hip engaging the hamstrings and glutes better. I believe sliding back in the seat has the same effect by moving your feet forwards compared to your hips reducing the dominance of knee bend but increasing the contribution of the hip extension. When getting out of the saddle and heaving the bike about it can go a step further by using both upper body strength and adductors.

That is how I've been able to engage glutes, but as you said, I can't do it for very long. I've also noted that I should probably slow down a lot in order to consciously move through pedal positions with purpose (ooh, alliteration!).

I'm weak in my right shoulder from extending that shoulder too far while massaging, so I've been thinking about doing pushups or down dogs & planks in order to stabilize this area. It worked before but I stopped doing it a while back. When I try to stabilize on the bike, if going uphill or very fast, I end up cramping in pec minor and at least a couple-a scalenes.

Felt like adding some more specific detail.

You'd get more "burn" because in a typical out of seat position the riders body moves forwards...So the quads are getting heavily fatigued by this supporting role even while it is the opposite leg pressing down.

Like the exercise where your back is to the wall with knees at 90 deg. I love/hate this feeling. Mostly I hate it when I am at the beginning of my work day.

If you actively push the pedal forwards at the top of the revolution, the motion is similar to kicking. Again, the quads are heavily worked to begin extending the knee at very difficult leverage.

I try to pay attention to what I think of as four points during each revolution, the top, the bottom, and the switch between each. I work on hip stabilization. I'd really like to have another bike fit session with Scherrit b/c I think I've passed beyond just commuting and am trying to build muscle and technique while getting to work at the same time. I'm quite fast, though I have slacked off a bit as I've noticed lower back pain and mental fatigue when I get to work if I cane it. Oh, is it weird that my lower back pain is centered over where my messenger bag sits? Well, it's QL and lower erectors on the right side.

When getting out of the saddle and heaving the bike about it can go a step further by using both upper body strength and adductors.

I see PLENTY of people who need to use their adductors more when riding seated. that's another spot I tend to try purposefully paying attention to, if I let them go, the whole leg laterally rotates and deviates and I get knee pain, or that weird watery feeling.

^needing a piss?

my back teeth are floating!

is it weird that my lower back pain is centered over where my messenger bag sits? Well, it's QL and lower erectors on the right side.

Not weird, quite logical I wudda thought. There's more stress on that side compared to the other so even tho its only your bag and probably not a huge weight , over the course of your commute its enough to place a significant strain on that area relative to the other side.

So how is everyones training going at the moment?
Tough?
I have only been back into the weights room for a week, and i'm loving the change-up. My body is depleted though at the end of it - i feel tired in a different way. Good times.

Tough.
Work has been draining these last couple of weeks so training has been hard to do.
This morning's gym session felt OK though, back on 8s. But I really need to start getting my A/E time in on the bike before I get too fat and unfit.

The dark mornings and dark evenings are going to play havoc with my motivation. I know what you mean about work, some days i am mentally drained and struggle to focus. I get *into *gym no probs, but getting quality reps in is a struggle.

I guess thats important though no? If you aren't putting the quality in, is it worth lifting at all....

I don't believe it is. Not for strength training.
I think it's different with aerobic exercise, if you feel tired you will still get through it and it will still benefit (if you are not ill).

If I can't get through the sets in my 2nd exercise of a gym session I will give in, it doesn't happen very often, maybe once or twice a year.

Same with OTB efforts, you need to go supra maximal for the training to be at it's best, if you can't hit that due to tiredness or the onset of illness then leave it alone.

Following on from that, do you think it is more beneficial to train on a working day rather than on what could be a potentially good rest day?

For example, doing your gym/bike ride in the evening after the day's work, then resting/active recovery on the day off?
Instead of my current routine of training on days off and flopping down knackered after a day's work.

Mate, thats me all over some weeks.
I'm without my car at the moment so I'm commuting on the bike. With my commute to and from work a 20mile round trip, i fall prey to the whole "i won't head into the gym this evening as i've put some miles into the legs".... its my day off tomorrow, I'll beast myself proper then.....
I guess its part of trying to juggle work with pleasure....

Yes, and I'm starting to think it's the wrong approach (for an old git like me anyway)

If I were to hit the weights or do a turbo session after work, I may feel tired beforehand but it would likely be OK once I got into it, then I could really get quality rest on the days off.

If you think about it, the recovery after a beasting on the weights needs to be proper recovery, not wandering around a field/track coaching riders all day and having no time to eat properly.

Yup.
I have the best intentions of "Optimum Nutrition" during my days off, reducing my caffeine down etc etc, but I often don't have time to get a decent lunch, let alone regular snacking....

I feel guilty if I don't train, so that's why I'm really enjoying the Wednesday training I've scheduled for the next few months:

30 minutes static stretching + eat well.

20 hours after last night's maintenance squats/presses, I'm getting the usual first twinge of DOMS. Minor though. Nothing that a TNRC won't dissipate.

jayloo - how long is your commute in the morning?

I just realized that my commute is 6.5 miles one way, so 13 rt. And I often ride to stuff after work and to clients houses at work. So some weeks I'll do 30 mile days more than once. I've decided to be really careful about scheduling home visits in Chislehurst (Summer Hill, oh yeah) on days I know I'm not going to be doing any more riding that day.

I'm feeling like a bit of a weakling b/c I feel like I should have acclimated to the commute by now, other rides notwithstanding, but a hill is a hill is a hill, and doing two every day can be draining. Time to investigate proper nutrition.

That was going to be another question Jayloo. With the miles you are riding and the hills you are tackling, it could be that every day you head out on the bike, you a riding on 'half tank'. You may be under estimating your output perhaps? If you leave the body in this state for too long, the body doesn't know whether to 'burn or build' leaving noticable performance slumps. Does that make sense?

Why not make it a rule (for the next month or so) that every time you dismount your bike, you eat something: a banana, a sandwich, whatever. Be disciplined. Do it immediately.

Make the most of the glycogen window.

Then take stock of the situation after the month is up.

BMMF et al what would you recomend for getting some baseline physiological figures for targeted training?
Its been years since I did a proper VO2 Max & MaxHR test.
HR is probably the most important
The Surrey Sports institute @ the cycle show got me thinking bout next season. I think they may cost a bit, will send an email request tomorrow.

Jayloo is so suffering from accumalated fatigue. I doubt a banana while riding is going to do all that much. An improved diet overall, quality sleep and easing off enough to let the body recover but not detrain is what is in order.

Pistaboy, where you lifting at? I almost forked out the £300 or so bham uni charge but bottled it last minute. Im floating around other crapper gyms about the city. I can help you programme an appropriate lifting regimen if you like.

I can help you "put the quality in" as it were. You are also probably fatigued from your hectic work schedule and bike riding. But with some careful considerations I reckon you could do something productive. Most important thing is commiting some regular time to it, even if its 1 hour per week.

BMMF et al what would you recomend for getting some baseline physiological figures for targeted training?
Its been years since I did a proper VO2 Max & MaxHR test.
HR is probably the most important
The Surrey Sports institute @ the cycle show got me thinking bout next season. I think they may cost a bit, will send an email request tomorrow.

If you want to do a ramp test (king's cycle test, wingate, blah), you might be able to exploit some university research. The last time I did that kind of testing was as part of a hypoxia (altitude/oxygen deprivation) study at UCL.