Is it time to start calling out bad cyclists?

There are a few riders I catch/who catch me riding from Pembury Road through to dalston. There's a few who are respectful when drafting and you know they're trust worthy enough not to wipe you out. Having said that, there's a couple who as soon as they get behind me, I back off and let them go ahead so I can see them and where they move in the road. I know I'll pass them at a few points just because of how they ride, but i find for my personal sanity, safety and ride enjoyment having them in front is safer than behind through that section.

Granted I should'nt have to manage it that way, but it works for me right now.

Through the same section, getting passed on the left just happens, I just look where I am in the road and glance right then left before I move. Maybe I should'nt have to, but I do.

A question, Is it just about cycling culture specifically that makes people ride/drive a certain way, or is it more a common culture of must beat/be there first/save a second/ live in my own bubble?

To Quote Jet McDonald in BoneShaker - his particular article refers to RLJ's, but there's a quote that I would cast across the psyche on the roads that seems to make sense to me - 'they (people, don't have the pyscological resources to be themselves, so they're infected with this anxiety, this "I've got to get going". Make of that what you will, to me it seems so very relevant.
(totally accept that's an interpretation of a quote before I'm negged).

Some of this is down to the afterthought that is our cycle infrastructure, which, conditions us to keep in the gutter and assume there will always be a box...even when there isn't, hoards of people pushing to the front of queues causing bottle necks.

I agree infrastructure does play a key role in the conditioning of cyclists and drivers alike, the assumption that 2 wheels ride the gutter and 3 wheels plus everywhere else. What I don't get, many of us here don't either, is the perpetuation of 'I have to be first, I have to be first' - It's not an age thing - There is no age range that can be picked as worst offender, it's not gender specific, what is it?
Why is there this undying need to be at the front and be first? Is it perceived as safer up front? Despite the carnage caused behind them, is it because it's behind them therefore it's nothing to do with them? I dunno...... every time I see it I'm as amused as I am amazed at how people move in traffic.

I think people bunching up in the ASL or at the front at lights is perfectly acceptable.
...
My pet hate is all the morons who just stop in the cycle lane (note often on the left - encouraging "undertaking") rather than going into the ASL box.
USE THE FRICKING BOX - DON'T STOP TO THE LEFT OF OF A VEHICLE IN THEIR BLIND SPOT - YOU CRETINS.

...hoards of people pushing to the front of queues causing bottle necks.

...Why is there this undying need to be at the front and be first? Is it perceived as safer up front? Despite the carnage caused behind them, is it because it's behind them therefore it's nothing to do with them? I dunno...... every time I see it I'm as amused as I am amazed at how people move in traffic.

discuss.

personally, I use the ASL less rather than more often - basically if there is a clear way there for me or if I'm already at the front anyway, then sure. otherwise, yeah I will just stop, and if I happen to be in the cycle lane, I'll be stopping there (I usually pull out so I'm in line with traffic but not always - as much to 'allow' other cyclists to undertake without bothering me instead of tutting behind, as for vehicles to see me).

stopping to the left side of a vehicle may mean: "I'm not sure how long I've got before the lights change / I can't see a way to filter that I'm comfortable with / this vehicle on my right may want to turn left, think I'd better just sit tight and wait for it to move out..." Ideally I'd be behind that particular vehicle rather than on its left, but it often just doesn't work out that way. on the road you have to judge the position you're in, not always being able to see three steps ahead.

Ideally I'd be behind that particular vehicle rather than on its left, but it often just doesn't work out that way. on the road you have to judge the position you're in, not always being able to see three steps ahead.

I disagree. IMHO if "it often just doesn't work out that way" you are doing it wrong!

I think we can all agree that if it is any kind of "long" vehicle we just MUST NOT go there unless we are 150% sure that we have time to pass it fully before it has ANY risk of moving.

For normal shorter vehicles (i.e. cars) we are only talking about anticipating the next 20 feet (max!).
I really can't think of any instances where I have incorrectly anticipated whether or not I could safely filter up the left of a car and become trapped to the left of it.

Of course there have been many times when I COULD have safely filtered in retrospect but I have CHOSEN not to either because I can't trust the nodder cyclists in front of me or because I don't know the light sequence.

As a result I end up sat in primary waiting like a car WAY more than your average nodder.

Perhaps I am just too conservative but the thought of ending up stuck to the left of ANY 4+ wheeled vehicle at a junction or lights, scares the crap out of me.

As a result I end up sat in primary waiting like a car WAY more than your average nodder.

Same. Not even just behind lorries, but behind buses and vans as well. Also sit behind cars I've noticed are being driven erratically. It's not very fashionable but I'm happy that way.

Wigan's famous Will has suggested in the past that the getting-to-the-front behaviour isn't something that's done consciously, and that if you were to ask your average cyclist why they were doing it, they wouldn't really be able to give much of an answer - it's just what you do. Imagine not being a member of LFGSS and being enlightened by threads like these. You'd see the blue paint leading up the inside to the big blue box, and you'd see 500 other cyclists rolling up the inside and sitting in the box. If nobody's ever told you any different, you're going to assume that's what you're supposed to do and not really think about it.

I think we can all agree that if it is any kind of "long" vehicle we just MUST NOT go there unless we are 150% sure that we have time to pass it fully before it has ANY risk of moving.

agreed. I always remain behind long vehicles, even if I may well have opportunity to pass, I'd rather not risk it.

Perhaps I am just too conservative but the thought of ending up stuck to the left of ANY 4+ wheeled vehicle at a junction or lights, scares the crap out of me.

I'm not talking about being at the lights or at the junction, but a few cars back, and deciding not to keep filtering, therefore stopping on the left. sometimes there isn't enough space between cars to move out.

the stuff about predicting what's ahead - cars move. you can't always predict what they're going to do, so you're filtering, and then something happens up ahead to change the situation.

why is it scary to be 'stuck' on the left of a vehicle? genuine question, maybe I am missing something. so long as you are not going anywhere. particularly if it is not at the front/ at the junction. if you know you're in their blindspot, you just wait for them to move past, make eye contact with whatever's behind them and then move out.

@walm: so you don't actually "USE THE FRICKING BOX" then?

a lot of undertaking badly and dangerously is in pursuit of the fabled box.
waiting on the left = not ideal, but better than going for the box. IMO.

LFGSS badges? at least then perhaps you would know its safe to draft/be drafted/roll with without it turning into a "who the fk is this guy on my tail im gonna drop him or glare at him when he goes by" kind of scenario which often happens.
sorry a bit off topic brain fart

I agree infrastructure does play a key role in the conditioning of cyclists and drivers alike, the assumption that 2 wheels ride the gutter and 3 wheels plus everywhere else. What I don't get, many of us here don't either, is the perpetuation of 'I have to be first, I have to be first' - It's not an age thing - There is no age range that can be picked as worst offender, it's not gender specific, what is it?
Why is there this undying need to be at the front and be first? Is it perceived as safer up front? Despite the carnage caused behind them, is it because it's behind them therefore it's nothing to do with them? I dunno...... every time I see it I'm as amused as I am amazed at how people move in traffic.

Fear ? - you have to keep cycling to maintain momentum because once you have stoppped your bicycle will turn back into the pumpkin.

I thought that was only after midnight? Tyres turn to Crystal glasses, frame turns into Liquorice, and your seat is a marshmallow? No?

If it's fear, then it's Liquorice frame fear clearly!

I disagree. IMHO if "it often just doesn't work out that way" you are doing it wrong!

I think we can all agree that if it is any kind of "long" vehicle we just MUST NOT go there unless we are 150% sure that we have time to pass it fully before it has ANY risk of moving.

For normal shorter vehicles (i.e. cars) we are only talking about anticipating the next 20 feet (max!).
I really can't think of any instances where I have incorrectly anticipated whether or not I could safely filter up the left of a car and become trapped to the left of it.

Of course there have been many times when I COULD have safely filtered in retrospect but I have CHOSEN not to either because I can't trust the nodder cyclists in front of me or because I don't know the light sequence.

As a result I end up sat in primary waiting like a car WAY more than your average nodder.

Perhaps I am just too conservative but the thought of ending up stuck to the left of ANY 4+ wheeled vehicle at a junction or lights, scares the crap out of me.

Agree totally. Staying back from the front runners and being aware of what's around you is a safer place to be.
We don't always get it right, but the more you get it right the better judgement you've made more consistently - Right?

@walm: so you don't actually "USE THE FRICKING BOX" then?

a lot of undertaking badly and dangerously is in pursuit of the fabled box.
waiting on the left = not ideal, but better than going for the box. IMO.

I use it loads.
But only when I know 100% I can safely filter past the cars to get there.
If there are some risky nodders ahead, who might randomly stop before getting to the box on the left of a vehicle, I would rather wait.

I guess I don't really get your point.
The whole aim is to avoid waiting on the left.
If you fail to get to the box, then you are effectively waiting on the left.
Just simply waiting on the left is even more of a fail!

My simple view is that you can't trust any vehicle not to drift left or actually turn left as they start to accelerate from stationary.

At which point - they crush you.
Why go there?
Just stop behind them. (AND of course make sure you are seen by the vehicle behind you - hence getting into primary if possible.)

Utterly! Stuck on the left even in pursuit of THE BOX is daft and unnessecary.

why is it scary to be 'stuck' on the left of a vehicle? genuine question, maybe I am missing something. so long as you are not going anywhere. particularly if it is not at the front/ at the junction. if you know you're in their blindspot, you just wait for them to move past, make eye contact with whatever's behind them and then move out.

As above they might drift left and take you out.

There is also no guarantee that whatever is behind them will notice you on the left - and I certainly wouldn't expect them to let you out; eye contact or not.

If you are in primary with your stationary arse 10 feet from their nose, they are going to have to damn well wait as you start off.
Stuck on the left, they are never going to wait. They will just muscle past you, which is pretty unpleasant, even if you are still just waiting for a gap.

LFGSS badges? at least then perhaps you would know its safe to draft/be drafted/roll with without it turning into a "who the fk is this guy on my tail im gonna drop him or glare at him when he goes by" kind of scenario which often happens.
sorry a bit off topic brain fart

When I first joined this forum there was a thread to order / buy lfgss saddle danglers... time to bump it? ;)

p.s. +1 to hoefla point about being left of a car when waiting, it is possible to do this without drastically increasing risk IMO.

Spoke cards with bike left of lorry and a red line through it saying something like "it won't kill you to wait".

I'll just get my coat and pop over to make friends on bikeradar.

^ printed on back of high viz vest surely?

^ I personally think that the back of a high viz rucksack cover is far better, but what do I know... ;)

^ not that panniers are much better for carrying your stuff whilst riding? ;)

^^^^ http://www.lfgss.com/thread10802.html

Me, on a De Rosa turning off Guildford Street and into Landsdowne Terrace on the way home this evening and dumbassishly nearly taking-out a bloke on a pink fixed/ss on the way – so sorry man! Felt like a douche the rest of the way home.

You were good enough to merely grumble at my apologies and rode a nice lookin' frame, which makes me think you probably lurk her somewhere like me.

^ not that panniers are much better for carrying your stuff whilst riding? ;)

I don't carry that much stuff generally, and my single speeds don't have pannier racks.

That said, the hybrid is written off now...

p.s. +1 to hoefla point about being left of a car when waiting, it is possible to do this without drastically increasing risk IMO.

+2

• if you're not moving, and you're not in the space where the vehicle is going to turn left, how is that a bad place to be??
  

My simple view is that you can't trust any vehicle not to drift left or actually turn left as they start to accelerate from stationary.

Someone turn on word filter to replace 'drift' with 'strafe', plzzz

The argument could be that from that position you have to be aware of every vehicle that might come alongside you; if you are in the traffic stream you only have to concern yourself with the one in front and the one behind, both drivers of which should be able to see you clearly.
Hoefla added the important point that she* make(s) eye contact with whatever's behind them and then move(s) out.*. This mitigates the risk but it is still less easy and reliable, and more stressful, than being in the traffic stream (assuming that you use your gears - or have a gear small enough - so that you are able to move off at the same pace as the motor vehicles).
So being to the left of the traffic stream is not necessarily bad but it will rarely be the best position. It also puts you at the mercy of other cyclists in front of you and their ability to accelerate and/or signal their intentions at the same time as you are negotiating with the driver behind you.