Is it time to start calling out bad cyclists?

There are a couple of reasons that I don't do it.

1. Safety
   In the majority of instances I could jump a red light whilst minimising the risk to myself and others. However, some instances may arise that I could not anticipate that would put myself or others at risk.

2. Perception of other road users
   Whilst I may be able to manage the risk of crossing the lights without putting myself or others at risk, this action may give rise to a perception amongst other road users that I believe I am above the law. I prefer not to foster that perception as I believe it increases risk to cyclists as road users in general.

3. Predictability
   This ties to the two points above. When other road users start to act unpredictably it increases the risk of road use to me. Given the expectation that road users should wait at red lights, jumping the light is inherently unpredictable and therefore increases risk.

It can be a bit of a drag waiting at lights, but I commute 30km a day and I would estimate that at most it costs me 10 minutes. Set against the points above, I can tolerate that.

A post full of assumptions — If you just worried about yourself and stopped being so self righteous then the world would be a better place.

1. Perception of other road users
   Whilst I may be able to manage the risk of crossing the lights without putting myself or others at risk, this action may give rise to a perception amongst other road users that I believe I am above the law. I prefer not to foster that perception as I believe it increases risk to cyclists as road users in general.
   
   

^ This.

Sorry I don't buy this reason at all

^ for a 30KM ride I bet all the red lights are 'rest stops' for you :P

A post full of assumptions — If you just worried about yourself and stopped being so self righteous then the world would be a better place.

If everyone just worried about themselves the world would be a worser place than it is today - imagine that.

If everyone just worried about themselves the world would be a worser place than it is today - imagine that.

Yes of course - but in relation to jumping reds I think not

[QUOTE=tatty-viking;2636334]There are a couple of reasons that I don't do it.

1. Safety
   In the majority of instances I could jump a red light whilst minimising the risk to myself and others. However, some instances may arise that I could not anticipate that would put myself or others at risk.

2. Perception of other road users
   Whilst I may be able to manage the risk of crossing the lights without putting myself or others at risk, this action may give rise to a perception amongst other road users that I believe I am above the law. I prefer not to foster that perception as I believe it increases risk to cyclists as road users in general.

3. Predictability
   This ties to the two points above. When other road users start to act unpredictably it increases the risk of road use to me. Given the expectation that road users should wait at red lights, jumping the light is inherently unpredictable and therefore increases risk.

It can be a bit of a drag waiting at lights, but I commute 30km a day and I would estimate that at most it costs me 10 minutes. Set against the points above, I can tolerate that.

A post full of assumptions — If you just worried about yourself and stopped being so self riotous then the world would be a better place.[/QUOTE]

A post full of what seem to me to be quite reasonable assumtions. Which bits did you actually think where wrong, and why?

From my side:

1. Safety.
   As a driver, you're trained that pedestrians are unprdictable around lights, someone might run from an alley that you've not spotted to get across. I'd rather avoid hitting this person, whether on my bike or in my car. Yes, 99.9999% of the time its likely to be fine, but that 0.0001% when I'm wrong? The risk is tiny, but I'm all for minimising it.

2. Perception of other road users
   How often do we hear complaints from drivers about cyclist not believing that the rules apply to them? Yes, it's sometimes from drivers who are totally in the wrong (in an ASL box maybe), but I've often seen it online, or at the bottom of blog posts. Drivers that think that we believe that the rules don't apply to us, might just be those that decide that maybe they won't apply to them if its 'just' a cyclist they've hit.

3. Predictability
   Drivers deal best with predictable things. They might be more wary of unpredictable ones, such as the cyclist who ducks in and out between parked cars, but people generally find things that are predictable are easier to deal with. Predictability also means doing what is expected of you. you are expected to stop at reds, if you don't you introduce doubt. That next set of reds, will you stop? You might, know, the dirver behind you certainly won't.

Waiting at lights cost me about 4 minutes on my 5 mile ride in and out. Thats a increase of 18% in time. If I jumped the reds that I could, I'd get in about 2 minutes faster. is that really worth it? I think not, others think it is.

A post full of assumptions — If you just worried about yourself and stopped being so self riotous then the world would be a better place.

His post wasn't self riotous, it was answering a question. Mine is asking you a question, and expaining why I agree with the original post. I'd like to hear your views to increase my knowledge.

If you are thrown a ball then you can catch it because it will follow a trajectory which you understand.
It follows rules, basically.
When in a shared environment (such as the road) if we follow the rules, then our "trajectory" can be understood and predicted.
If we decide that the rules apply to other people, and that we are too important to follow them, then we become unpredictable.
This means that we put the responsibility for our own safety in the hands of other people- specifically their ability to guess what we are going to do next.

A post full of assumptions — If you just worried about yourself and stopped being so self righteous then the world would be a better place.

Wow - a powerful and cogent rebuttal. I'll worry about myself and stop being so self righteous in future.

worry about myself and stop being self righteous

Hang on, those two actions seem mutually exclusive.

Sorry I don't buy this reason at all

Could you flesh out your responses a bit as TV has made some interesting and apparently valid points and I would like to hear the counter argument.

if youve got a red that means that someone else i.e ped or other direction traffic has got a green
is that a complex proposition?

As this is circular and has been done to death I don't know why I entered into this debate. Probably because I've noticed an increasing number of nodders rolling through all red lights irrespective of the merits of doing so.

Sorry I don't buy this reason at all

That attitude is the reason why pretty much EVERY driver hates cyclists.
If you want empirical evidence just search Pistonheads for any RLJ thread.

The consensus always comes down to "the cyclists believe they are above the law so I will drive around them with less consideration".

How about that confused.com survey?
http://www.confused.com/car-insurance/motorists-v-cyclists/cyclists-and-motorists-complain-of-clashes
In case you are too lazy to click:
"The largest complaint from British drivers was of cyclists running through red lights."

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, it's just wrong. ;)

It's a bit of every day naughtiness. A little fuck you to the nanny state that says we should stop and wait at the red light when obviously we could ride through quite safely and get away with it. So often most* people do jump it.

Amey: what if RLJ becomes even more common to the point where cyclists are expected to carry on through red lights? Seems like a pretty crappy situation when you're risking a collision with the cyclists behind you just by safely stopping at an intersection. Oh shit there I go thinking about consequences and others again

have a malteser, go on, it's a bit naughty...

"yeah, fuck you nanny state! fuck you! see me roll through this red? yeah! fuck you!"

That attitude is the reason why pretty much EVERY driver hates cyclists.
If you want empirical evidence just search Pistonheads for any RLJ thread.

The consensus always comes down to "the cyclists believe they are above the law so I will drive around them with less consideration".

How about that confused.com survey?
http://www.confused.com/car-insurance/motorists-v-cyclists/cyclists-and-motorists-complain-of-clashes
In case you are too lazy to click:
"The largest complaint from British drivers was of cyclists running through red lights."

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, it's just wrong. ;)

A post full of what seem to me to be quite reasonable assumtions. Which bits did you actually think where wrong, and why?

From my side:

1. Safety.
   As a driver, you're trained that pedestrians are unprdictable around lights, someone might run from an alley that you've not spotted to get across. I'd rather avoid hitting this person, whether on my bike or in my car. Yes, 99.9999% of the time its likely to be fine, but that 0.0001% when I'm wrong? The risk is tiny, but I'm all for minimising it.

2. Perception of other road users
   How often do we hear complaints from drivers about cyclist not believing that the rules apply to them? Yes, it's sometimes from drivers who are totally in the wrong (in an ASL box maybe), but I've often seen it online, or at the bottom of blog posts. Drivers that think that we believe that the rules don't apply to us, might just be those that decide that maybe they won't apply to them if its 'just' a cyclist they've hit.

3. Predictability
   Drivers deal best with predictable things. They might be more wary of unpredictable ones, such as the cyclist who ducks in and out between parked cars, but people generally find things that are predictable are easier to deal with. Predictability also means doing what is expected of you. you are expected to stop at reds, if you don't you introduce doubt. That next set of reds, will you stop? You might, know, the dirver behind you certainly won't.

Waiting at lights cost me about 4 minutes on my 5 mile ride in and out. Thats a increase of 18% in time. If I jumped the reds that I could, I'd get in about 2 minutes faster. is that really worth it? I think not, others think it is.

His post wasn't self riotous, it was answering a question. Mine is asking you a question, and expaining why I agree with the original post. I'd like to hear your views to increase my knowledge.

Even if the entirety of this forum stops RLJing, you'll never change the opinion of the people highlighted above for two reasons:

We don't make up the majority of RLJers in the country.

Too many people are cunts and won't ever change.

A post full of assumptions — If you just worried about yourself and stopped being so self righteous then the world would be a better place.

Actually if people stopped worrying about just themselves this world would be a better place.

RLJ thread is over there btw >>>

If you are thrown a ball then you can catch it because it will follow a trajectory which you understand.
It follows rules, basically.
When in a shared environment (such as the road) if we follow the rules, then our "trajectory" can be understood and predicted.
If we decide that the rules apply to other people, and that we are too important to follow them, then we become unpredictable.
This means that we put the responsibility for our own safety in the hands of other people- specifically their ability to guess what we are going to do next.

Good description. Have you considered cycle training?

I mean 'splaining it to others obv.

@NurseHolliday

Oh hell no, I know that, you know that, we all know that.

Points 1 & 3 above are good reasons not to do it in and of their own rights, point 2 I see as more of a bonus.

I always suspect that secretly those drivers are cross that we're not having to pay for fuel...

It's a bit of every day naughtiness. A little fuck you to the nanny state that says we should stop and wait at the red light when obviously we could ride through quite safely and get away with it. So often most* people do jump it.

Otherways to stick it to the Nanny State;

Eat more the 6g of salt with every meal.
Work more then 40 hours a week
Don't wear your seatbelt
Refuse a CRB check when working with children or vulnerable people

Yeah.... Stick it to em!

Refuse a CRB check when working with children or vulnerable people

Made me LOL.

Actually if people stopped worrying about just themselves this world would be a better place.

As I've already said hippy…

Yes of course - but in relation to jumping reds I think not

That attitude is the reason why pretty much EVERY driver hates cyclists.
If you want empirical evidence just search Pistonheads for any RLJ thread.

The consensus always comes down to "the cyclists believe they are above the law so I will drive around them with less consideration".

How about that confused.com survey?
http://www.confused.com/car-insurance/motorists-v-cyclists/cyclists-and-motorists-complain-of-clashes
In case you are too lazy to click:
"The largest complaint from British drivers was of cyclists running through red lights."

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, it's just wrong. ;)

You really think if the majority of cyclists stopped RLJ these people would stop hating cyclists or do you think they JUST hate cyclists?

Have you been cycling in London long?

Wow - a powerful and cogent rebuttal. I'll worry about myself and stop being so self righteous in future.

Please point out to me where in your post you don't make assumptions about other road users?