Cycling Fitness / Training Advice

Fair enough. Though I do then nearner 120% . Though I rarely do short stuff.

I wonder if your threshold is higher than you think then. Or you should go harder. The point of such efforts is accruing time at vo2. So doing more time at lower power is not always better.

What's your HR max and what's your end of interval HR?

Also how long is your rest period?

I used to do four on four off. This was back when I was training 12 hours a week and had an FTP of 330. It seems a long time ago now but was only two years.

Confident my FTP was right. I just had a good engine for doing four/five min efforts because I lived in Hong Kong where much the riding forces you to repeat them. My 30 and 10 second power was and still is pitiful.

I’ve never used HR.

Bring the off down to two min.

I’ve done that for some sessions and I know it helps you stay in or close to the VO2 max state.

I certainly struggle to get beyond four reps with shorter recoveries 🤢.

Interesting.

My primary goal is to improve my threshold power because I judge this to be the best metric to fit with the races I predominantly do (a typical year will include a focus on a couple of half iron distance tris and a marathon, plus a smattering of 10-50mi TTs and some cx and xc(running) races which I do for either fun and/or an alternative to an interval session).

My training is largely polarised with 10-12hrs/week structured around 2 high intensity sessions (usually 1 run 1 bike, but can be 2 of either sport depending on proximate goals), with the remainder at low intensity. I also try to include a regular longer low intensity endurance session for both run and bike (2-3hr run and 3-4 hour ride). The remainder are all short easy intensity runs/rides, often commuting.

My run training is slightly different but for cycling, this year I am experimenting with starting with longer intervals and decreasing the interval duration and increasing the intensity throughout the season. Each block of intervals is conducted for about 2-3 months before moving onto the next block. This means I realistically only have 3 “types” of interval session: 2x20 (completed), 8x4 (starting) and then hard start 30/15 VO2Max intervals (https://sparecycles.blog/2019/03/13/comparing-30-15-vo2max-intervals/ which I’ll start around June).

I do the 8x4 intervals on the recommendation of Mark Jones (@mork on TTF). IIRC his original recommendation was to target 10mi TT effort (so ~105% FTP) with 90sec recoveries. When he recommended this session he cited this paper (http://www.tradewindsports.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Stepto-99-Effects-of-different-HIIT-on-TT.pdf) which has very low sample size but Mark said he had considerable success using this interval session with the athletes he coaches. As it happens, now that I read the paper it actually recommends targeting 85% peak power. Although their ramp test protocol is slightly different to mine this would be more like 113% FTP.

Either way, my “interval protocol” is always to aim for the hardest intensity that I can consistently maintain for the target duration. Or in other words I’m aiming to maximise my average power over the total duration of the “work” while minimising the variability both within and between intervals. For the 2x20s this has usually meant starting my interval block at nearer 95% FTP but as the block goes on (a) I hopefully improve and (b) I mentally adjust to the intervals and so this rises to nearer 100% FTP. It’s a while since I did the 8x4min intervals but I recall being able to complete them at 105% FTP but found it hard… I don’t think I could have done a 9th rep.

There was some stuff by Seiler that showed what you're proposing had great effect, going from longer to shorter intervals. I can't think were I saw it right now.

I like to think about it in total work done. Which is time duration and effort level. If you go to hard, you can't do so much, but go too low and it's not a potent stimulus.

I have found 4x10min to be good. It's a good amount of work (done 1 or 2x/week) and hard but not super hard. If I do 4-6x4 then i need more time to recover.

Also due to my genetics, I really do not need to work Vo2 directly, I can do 5.5L/min. So I focus on improving efficiency etc. The more time I can accrue riding my bike at around 70% MHR the better I will be. That said if I needed to repeat 3-5 min efforts, then I would work it, but I don't.

That said, I have given up most structured training now. The simple fact is it does not make much difference. Years back I followed a rigid programme, with all sorts. Last year I just did whatever I felt like. My power numbers were better than ever last year.

8x4 at that sort of power with 90sec recovery is solid work. But not over the top hard. Not surprising it works. It's not far of my 4x10 efforts.

Thankfully I have chosen a division of cycling that does not reward finding the final 5%. But rewards being stubborn.

4 x 10 mins at 108% twice a week? Nails.

Not 108%. Would be a bit under 100%. But I go my HR on them around 90% max avg.

But I need to be fit to do 2x a week and I won't do it that often. At the moment 1 4x10 a week is enough, but I don't have the depth for more work.

My point was more, that the work load from that is similar to the workload for the stimulus I find effecting, unsurprisingly.

Gotya. Agreed 4 x 10 threshold is where it's at.

I'd been doing all the usual sweetspot stuff building up to 30-40 minute intervals but the sessions get too long to be compatible with real life. So time around or just over threshold is the plan for now.

sweetspot

I stopped working in that range a while back. It just left me too tired out.

Yeah I don’t have a paper for that (I’d be interested to see one if you do) but the idea was based on Seiler’s thoughts in some podcast or other.

saw this just now, relevant to you

Great teamwork to produce this paper! Good fight to publish it at the end, but we won!

Optimizing Interval Training Through Power-Output Variation Within the Work Intervals@rich_davison time to release our podcast! 😉https://t.co/AcyiawOFCI pic.twitter.com/7jRNCg7FZi

— Arthur H. Bossi (@ahbossi) April 3, 2020

Very interesting, thank you.

—————————————
TLDR summary:

Essentially they compared 2 methods of delivering 6x5min VO2MAX intervals. The work in both treatments was judged to be equivalent because both were conducted at the same average power, however in the first treatment the power was held constant during the work periods, whereas the other treatment the power varied throughout the work phase.

Treatment 1: 6x5minute intervals @84%MAP constant power.
Treatment 2: 6x5minute intervals delivered as (30s @100% MAP, 60s @77% MAP) * 3 + 30s @77% MAP. (See the figure linked in @skinny’s post)

Recoveries in both treatments were 2.5 min @30% MAP.

Riders were then assessed in terms of the time spent at >90% VO2MAX along with other physiological metrics including RPE.

The study found that riders performing the variable intervals spent more time at >90% VO2MAX (thus were likely to experience greater GAINZ), without experiencing increased HR, RPE or cadence.
—————————————

This fits with what the author of the blog I posted was saying (hard start intervals), and I also like the idea of mixing different intensities into the intervals because races (even TTs and Tris) are almost never raced at a perfectly flat power so it seems intuitively valuable to train being able to handle repeated power surges.

I’ll probably stick to the regular Stepto intervals for next week but after that I may start doing my 6x4 minutes with some 30 second bursts… see how that goes.

almost never raced at a perfectly flat power

Just because you can't pace doesn't mean I'm doing VO2s :P

14w bump to the FTP today, pleased with that considering I crashed pretty badly on Friday morning, leaving a large chunk of elbow, hip and ankle somewhere on a Kent lane

This lockdown malarkey is doing wonders for my training, who'd have thought it?!

Top stuff, well not the crashing but still.

Another monthly ramp test tonight. 1min peak power was a mighty 1w higher than last month.

This is the first test this "season" that I haven't seen a big jump, but I'm sanguine on two counts:

a) Obviously perpetual gainz are unrealistic and any upward trend is likely to include some noise. One month of flatlining doesn't indicate a plateau in development.
b) For unknown reasons I've felt unusually low all week, and today has definitely been a recent minimum. I struggled to get up this morning, nodded my way through a zoom call and have achieved virtually nothing for work. I started the turbo an hour later than planned, felt flat during the warmup and still achieved the same peak power with lower perceived effort (i.e. I felt I quit sooner than I might have done).

So, I'll keep my training zones the same for next month, and experiment with going for an easy ride tomorrow morning (typically I go in the early evening). Also I'm moving on to the "Bossi intervals" described upthread which are a little daunting.

Right I’m thinking Hill climb season might run. Therefor considering how to train, would be my first attempt. For reference I’m 37, 75kg and about 190cm. Current FTP is ~260w max HR about 175.

I’ve been up College Road and Swains the last week, averaged ~450w for ~3 mins.
Was thinking of V02 and over and unders.

Also thought about making some custom interval sessions around ~450 for two mins.
Any value in this?

Fuck off you're not 37?!

6w/kg for 3 mins is great. Don't have any training tips I'm afraid, I just use Trainer Road, though might try Clinterval closer to race season. Used to do Swains reps years ago, structure on the turbo is much more effective for me.

I bet loads of strong TTers that normally poo-poo HCs are gonna smash hills this season.

Back handed compliment hopefully .....?

Ok well thats reassuring at least I won't make a total fool of myself.
Yeah I agree I seem to respond quite well to turbo training.
I'd imagine so. Best place to find a list of events?

https://cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/find-events

In the Type or Distance dropdown on the left choose Hill Climb

I bet loads of strong TTers that normally poo-poo HCs are gonna smash hills this season.

Yeah nah

For reference I can do 450ish for 5 at 74kg. And I have a threshold around 350ish.

You should be able to be a LOT faster with training.

If your value of 450 is correct. To have a threshold as low at 260 you must do very little cycling. I basically got on a bike and had a threshold around that. And a little training took it north of 300 quickly.

Oh. Sod Vo2 work now. Just ride as much as you can now. And loose as much weight as you can without sacrificing much power. Or just be chill and have fun... and beer.