The thread for circumcised gentiles

In the same way that (extreme, perhaps) the removal of an arm for instance would be considered mutilation, unless it was for some genuine medical reason. If there is a medical reason, and it is a real medical reason, like trying to have sex with your stem, then chop it off. If it is a baby, and you want to chop it off because daddy had his cut off, or because your fucking sky pixie said you should do it, then that is mutilation and should be illegal.

I understand what you mean, but even when you remove all links with tradition and religion, the argument for circumcision still stands well.

LPG Do you consider any other reasons for circumcision besides HIV? Because I can't see how that alone makes the case for universal circumcision at birth

LPG Do you consider any other reasons for circumcision besides HIV? Because I can't see how that alone make the case stand up for universal circumcision at birth

Indeed, circumcision as a solution to HIV/AIDS seems like opening a nut with a sledgehammer to me. Surely in the long term a better option is education, testing and vaccine/drug development, which I happen to know has come on leaps and bounds, even in recent months...

From the British Medical Journal

*Summary points

The majority of men who are HIV positive have been infected through the penis.* *

There is conclusive epidemiological evidence to show that uncircumcised men are at a much greater risk of becoming infected with HIV than circumcised men.* *

The inner surface of the foreskin contains Langerhans' cells with HIV receptors; these cells are likely to be the primary point of viral entry into the penis of an uncircumcised man.* *

Male circumcision should be seriously considered as an additional means of preventing HIV in all countries with a high prevalence of infection.* *

The development of HIV receptor blockers, which could be applied to the penis or vagina before intercourse, might provide a new form of HIV prevention

*You have to sign in to read the full article, but that is free. There is plenty more evidence to back this up as well. There are a million different things contributing to HIV/STD prevalence, some physical, some social, some political, but every little thing that can reduce the infection rate has got to be a good thing. I wouldn't advocate 'mass-circumcision', but surely it should be promoted. It is naïve and arrogant just to just suggest that more people use condoms or fuck less.

Snipped (arf) off the citation... It is naïve and arrogant just to just suggest that more people use condoms or fuck less.

Isn't this simply from a male perspective though? It takes two to tango etc.

If you're ready to fuck, fuck safely is the normal sexual health message. Circumcision as a method of safe sex, isn't really a winner.

How this thread looks to me:

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Its like the fucking matrix in here sometimes. No-one thinks anyone should brutalize anyones goolies.

Im going to sleep.

@snowy

Yep fair points. I'm not saying it's the perfect solution to the HIV epidemic but it can work. There does, of course, still need to be heavy pressure on education and promotion of condoms for casual sex, but I do think people will still have sex unprotected. I think your ideas of achieving male/female equality and a shared sense of responsibility on an entire continent are far far harder to achieve than sexual education, in which circumcision can so easily play a part.

By the way, just out of curiosity, do you know the statistics for the HIV infection rate for vaginal sex, biologically? When I went for a check-up I asked the doctor and he was really vague it, so I went on the web and after searching for ages I came up with male-female 0.01%, female-male 0.001%, is this right?

but every little thing that can reduce the infection rate has got to be a good thing. I wouldn't advocate 'mass-circumcision', but surely it should be promoted. It is naïve and arrogant just to just suggest that more people use condoms or fuck less.

Yep, totally agree with you.

jonlubi, in just the 150 word of the article was:

Meta-analysis suggests that men engaging in high risk behaviours may be placed at further risk by having a foreskin, but in the general population circumcision status is not a significant factor. It also showed an important degree of heterogeneity between studies, calling into question the validity of the summary results.2 The multiple confounding factors influencing sexual behaviour and HIV susceptibility make it irresponsible to place blame on normal anatomy.

More to it than you said. I said maybe it's a viable option in area of HIV epidemic, but that aint the case here or the US. Around 60% of US boys are cut, it's not because of HIV

Im going to sleep.

night night

It's a method taken from the Dave Brailsford school of sexual health, where you reduce 100 risks of infection by 1%...

Good point mind. The fact is there is so much more to HIV transmission than the germs on your knob/fanny. The sexual politics, social structures, economic factors etc that all affect the people involved, all contribute in some way to the rate of infection.

LPG Do you consider any other reasons for circumcision besides HIV? Because I can't see how that alone makes the case for universal circumcision at birth

HIV and other STDs, but no, that's pretty much it.. Why can you not see how this makes the case for circumcision? Some countries, like SA, have a 10% HIV infection rate, a lot of west African countries are in a similar position. Don't you reckon its worth it, on balance. A painless surgical procedure during infancy that takes a few minutes and a lifetime of less maintenance leading to big reduction in the probability of contracting some incurable disease.

When I went for a check-up I asked the doctor and he was really vague it, so I went on the web and after searching for ages I came up with male-female 0.01%, female-male 0.001%, is this right?

Haven't got a reference, but a few years ago I used that statistic in an essay on this topic at uni!

The only problem with my knob is the cobwebs.

More to it than you said. I said maybe it's a viable option in area of HIV epidemic, but that aint the case here or the US. Around 60% of US boys are cut, it's not because of HIV

The HIV infection rate in the states isn't that low, though.

Well, fuck. Looks like quite a few countries have a higher prevalence rate than 10% (if that graph is accurate..)

http://www.avert.org/aids-statistics.htm

Eastern Europe and Asia go up, Africa down a bit.
I think has been the trend.
If I get the job I'm going for I'll be going to the reddest of the red areas as part of http://www.clintonfoundation.org/
So I should double check my statistics before the interview...

yeah and USA has got a higher rate than the UK, yet 60% are circumsised.

in response you either say:

-max 0.9% diferential means little (so no case shown for circumcision)
or
-There are too many other factors (in which case deal with them before condering universal infant circumcision)

However as I keep saying the high rate of HIV infection requires re-assessment of all factors, and I think it's a special case scenario which isn't relevant to a discussion of the current circumsision practises of the west.

yeah and USA has got a higher rate than the UK, yet 60% are circumsised.

Glad someone else spotted that.

I suspect they have a higher rate than us because they have a higher rate of immigrants from countries with high HIV prevalence, proportionally, but i'm not sure. Maybe they're less repressed and more open about casual sex, gay sex in particular, I know you are much more likely to spread/contract HIV if you have anal sex, maybe this has something to do with it .. i'm really not sure. I don't know why circumcision is so prevalent in the States, it's not religious, is it cultural?

google tells me it's 55% in the States.

It's touted that in 19 century advocates of circumcision believed it to reduce libedo in young boys by desensitisation, and presummably the culture grew from there. but I don't know.

What is clear is that at $40 a pop it's big buisness in the US

Edit:
Yeah i was just looking at the map, it's interesting. On the one hand there appears to be a north south invesion of HIV and circumcision in Africa, but they cross over a lot.

Re 55% rate, the WHO figure for the US is 75% according to wikipedia. there's lots of values

I heard it came about via Jewish immigrants + Jewish doctors who promoted it.

I missed this post.

Fuck off.

lol u mad

Well i was circumcised for medical reasons (as a young child, i didnt consent), pissing in my own eyes etc - and the only problem i have with circumcision are the militant do gooders telling me im mentally scarred, bitter and that i should be ashamed of my disgusting mutilated cock.

If you're referring to me, you've misunderstood quite seriously. I don't have any problem with medical circumcision, or the aesthetics of circumcision - in fact, just to take it to totally inappropriate levels, aesthetically I'd probably prefer a cut wang - it makes having a PA a lot nicer.

My only problem is when people defend medically unnecessary surgery performed - without anesthetic - on those too young to give consent.

Male circumcision, female genital cutting, tattoos, piercings, whatever - no-one has the right to carry out non-consensual body mods. Unless they're hot goth chicks who are into that shit.

PA? penis art?

Prince Albert