I hope she dies a horrible death

Your not on about an absolute logic here but a subjective logic.

What do you mean by 'absolute' logic and 'subjective' logic?

^I'm guessing that he means it's not an absolute given that eating meat and loving animals are logically contradictory. If so, I'm with him on this...

Horrible stuff, but then there a lot of horrible people in the world. In a way I think the elephant story is worse than the Iraq story. She let the poor elephant die a protracted death for a bet, it sounds like she was in completely sound mind and just did not give a shit.

The soldier who killed that family, raped the girl then shot her too... I think he must be suffering from some serious mental disorder. I can't see how any normal person would want or be able to do those things. Military training in itself is designed to remove any sense of empathy or compassion that an individual may have for the enemy. Killing someone would, for most people, be extremely traumatic; yet this is the occupation of the common soldier.

So to begin with the military is teaching soldiers to disengage from feelings of remorse or responsibility for the actions they carry out. Maybe this guy was a little unhinged to begin with, maybe military service made him that way. It's tragic, but I'm not sure he should be considered evil when there is a high probability that he is in fact severely mentally ill. I think if someone would do such a thing for pleasure (or whatever reason) then there is something fundamentally wrong with them and they should be pitied.

Who should we direct our hate to? Perhaps the people that start the wars? The people that take young ignorant men and use them to kill? The US Army has a habit of actively recruiting in the most deprived areas, knowing that it will find impressionable, not particularly bright but malleable recruits. The same is happening here too, anyone notice the Army recruitment place in Dalston that has sprung up recently? You don't see them in Islington, you don't see them in Kensington. I wonder why?

Nice points raised Stormalx,very considerate. I'd be careful of simplification in respect to your views on forces recruitment policy. The majority of the guys and girls joining the forces at junior (non-officer) level are from working class or 'deprived' backgrounds (I struggle a little with exactly what both definitions mean). A career in the forces has always been, and may remain, an escape from a shit area or a poor background. It was made quite clear to me during my recruitment that I was a little out of the norm having come from what was considered a stable background. There's no question that certain 'departments' of the forces do require a more 'malleable' nature to their recruits but this is something of a given considering the nature of the work the may do and the fact that their lives prior to joining would have offered no preparation.

Well off areas are generally not filled with with kids with little direction. Those that do choose to join the forces will often have received parental support and will often aspire to become an officer. They will not need to stumble upon a careers office, their schools often provide the introduction.

Not really saying much here, just a few observations of a world that doesn't get alot of positive press.

Worth pointing out that he got into the US Army on a waiver for various drug/alcohol offences and was honourably discharged for Antisocial Personality Disorder before his crimes came to light. Notwithstanding that I think personality disorder diagnoses are often a bit of a cop-out, he sounds like a pretty fucked up guy placed by circumstance in exactly the situation in which he could do most harm. Sad story all round, and his being electrocuted or gassed won't do anything to make it better, in my submission.

unlucky for the elephant

that thing got murked

DFP is right that many animals get a better life and better protection in reserves But in contrast, outside the reserves are so poor that 'bushmeat' is something of a staple.

There's no pretty answer to any of this. Veganism is all well and good but people still eat meat, so we have to deal with the consequences of that. And whichever way we kill animals, it's rarely fair on them. C'est la vie.

Actually, there is a clear contradiction between eating meat and being an animal lover (one that can be demonstrated using perfectly simple logic). It depends on whether you can see it.

But if you genuinely don't care about people being killed, perhaps the contradiction between caring only about animals and not about people being killed is perhaps the view of yours that requires looking into first?

i completely disagree about the contradiction. It's all about living in harmony with the planet. Nature. Eating meat is nature, respecting life is nature. Therefore i am a naturalist.....i eat meat, but i respect it...in fact, with out sounding wet, some cultures believe eating something (someone) to be the highest form of love, to absorb it's life.....(not my view but still...)

As for human death - maybe harsh but i dont really have a problem with that....i dont see the death of a human i dont know really anymore meaningful than that of a animal i dont know. Humans are pretty fucking vile if you ask me.....i have no idea how i could see myself 'ubove' animals when we are animlas too.....but with some messed up ideas of our own self-importance. Did you cry when Diana died? no? then point proved....i am not emotionally connected to every person on this planet......i feel awful when someone innocent is killed for no reason, but when gangs shoot each other up - couldn't give a fuck. Same in the animal kingdom.....i dont shed a tear for a lion eating a gazelle but i do when an american lady pointlessly kills an elephant for a bet or a fucking soldier throws a fucking puppy off a cliff. FUCK. That makes me sick.

I can see that i'm being asked to 'think' about the harsh comment i said.....but i dont consider it harsh.....i simply dont.

I'm not a goth.

I cried when Jade Goody left us

I cried when Jade Goody left us

me too - big fat tears of joy.

....less of the 'fat', bang out of order. She was just big boned

anyone watched dumbo recently? great film.

Nice points raised Stormalx,very considerate. I'd be careful of simplification in respect to your views on forces recruitment policy. The majority of the guys and girls joining the forces at junior (non-officer) level are from working class or 'deprived' backgrounds (I struggle a little with exactly what both definitions mean). A career in the forces has always been, and may remain, an escape from a shit area or a poor background. It was made quite clear to me during my recruitment that I was a little out of the norm having come from what was considered a stable background. There's no question that certain 'departments' of the forces do require a more 'malleable' nature to their recruits but this is something of a given considering the nature of the work the may do and the fact that their lives prior to joining would have offered no preparation.

Well off areas are generally not filled with with kids with little direction. Those that do choose to join the forces will often have received parental support and will often aspire to become an officer. They will not need to stumble upon a careers office, their schools often provide the introduction.

Not really saying much here, just a few observations of a world that doesn't get alot of positive press.

Interesting, what was it that inspired you to join at a junior level then? During my studies I was approached a few times to join with the view to becoming an Officer, but I declined.

Interesting, what was it that inspired you to join at a junior level then? During my studies I was approached a few times to join with the view to becoming an Officer, but I declined.

I was (and probably still am) too much of a scrote for that. There are no ex-servicemen in my family so I had no advice when joining, apart from that of the careers office, that advice is often shite. i just wanted to join up and probably would have accepted any job offered. I was recommended for a commission on a couple of occasions during my time but you need to be pretty dedicated to achieve that. On the whole, I didn't really have any career aspirations, so just pissed up alot and left as a Leading Hand (corporal) after 10 years.

If I had my time again or was proferring advice I'd recommend the officer route everytime. You hit the nail on the head when you mention the fact that you were approached during study; contrary to mess-deck belief, officers are usually a pretty bright bunch. Insufferable too.

I was (and probably still am) too much of a scrote for that. There are no ex-servicemen in my family so I had no advice when joining, apart from that of the careers office, that advice is often shite. i just wanted to join up and probably would have accepted any job offered. I was recommended for a commission on a couple of occasions during my time but you need to be pretty dedicated to achieve that. On the whole, I didn't really have any career aspirations, so just pissed up alot and left as a Leading Hand (corporal) after 10 years.

If I had my time again or was proferring advice I'd recommend the officer route everytime. You hit the nail on the head when you mention the fact that you were approached during study; contrary to mess-deck belief, officers are usually a pretty bright bunch. Insufferable too.

You say you "just wanted to join up", I'm still curious as to why that was? I know you said you didn't really have much in the way of career aspirations, but in that case surely joining up was a pretty tough route to choose? You stayed for ten years, so there must have been something about it you liked, no?

I see nothing wrong in principle with military service, it just bothers me that (as I already said) often impressionable people from less privileged backgrounds are encouraged to enlist without really understanding what this might entail.

From your prose you seem to be intelligent, thoughtful and observant, so I'd like to know why it was you chose to join up rather than taking a civilian job of similar pay? Surely active service required much more discipline and dedication than a 9-5?

As for the officer route, I think the reason I was approached was because I was studying Engineering. They offered money, in return for a minimum period of service. I didn't really feel like having any commitments, so I said "no" every time...

You say you "just wanted to join up", I'm still curious as to why that was? I know you said you didn't really have much in the way of career aspirations, but in that case surely joining up was a pretty tough route to choose? You stayed for ten years, so there must have been something about it you liked, no?

I see nothing wrong in principle with military service, it just bothers me that (as I already said) often impressionable people from less privileged backgrounds are encouraged to enlist without really understanding what this might entail.

From your prose you seem to be intelligent, thoughtful and observant, so I'd like to know why it was you chose to join up rather than taking a civilian job of similar pay? Surely active service required much more discipline and dedication than a 9-5?

In many ways a career in the Forces is something of an easy option. There's no question that it is occasionally challenging, but it is highly structured. There is very little requirement for you to plan ahead or apply yourself for long periods. I had planned to go to uni, but acknowledged quite quickly into A-levels that I struggled with applying myself to study. I am still shit at it. 10 years elapsed because I got swept up in it, enough change being offered in new drafts and training to keep the boredom manageable. I was also a shocking pisshead, sometimes severely so and this rendered me incapable of getting myself together and leaving earlier.

I was being a bit flippant about my apparent lack of motivation for joining. I had wanted to join up for a while and felt it was a good, exciting thing to do. I can't really elaborate more, it's all a little hazy!

I fully appreciate your belief that people may be joining up poorly informed. I suspect though that most kids have a pretty good idea of what they're getting themselves into. I have met a few young squaddies with a real taste for violence; this taste would have been created in civvy street and developed in the army, but once they get into their mid twenties these guys often turn into genuinely good people. We will always have plenty of angry young men in our society.

Do bear in mind that I was in the Navy, peeps from the other forces will doubtless think I'm talking bollocks.

Nice talking to you about it!