Recent HGV/cyclist accidents

how about making up some big old signs and cable-tieing them to railings at particularly nasty junctions? wouldn't have to cost much.

Because, unfortunately, the councils would remove them. Or they would be stolen or vanadalised

yep. they wont accept any permenant fixtures but we have a way around that.... :)

Fred said

1. educate cyclists - road skills (yes, it's tactical)
   
2. educate other road users - speed, sharing the road,
   
3. lobby government - strict liability, road planning, vehicle design
   
   

I think fred is right here.

1. Educate cyclists- TfL and some london boroughs are spending £££ to promote cycling with ads on bus stops and billboards accross london encouraging people to cycle. Some of this promotion money should be spent on messages about how to cycle (using positive language Do rather than don't)such as...
   "Take as much room as you need to be safe"
   "Pass queues of cars on the right to get to the front"
   "Keep checking behind"
   "get some bike skills training -it 's subsidised or free!"
   "Ride in the traffic stream when you can match it's speed or you need to to be safe"
   "Ensure (HGV) drivers have seen you if you plan to pass them"
   "Ride a car door's width away from all parked cars"
   (Copy writers commenting in the press about the cycling boom should also be encouraged to pass on these messages)
   And such messages need not only come from TfL and govornment. LCC could talk about this stuff more in its campaigns. This forum can give out cakes. etc

2. Educate other road users - this is beginning. Some work is being done in Lambeth training their HGV drivers on bikes. This is being taken up in ealing and now 3 other boroughs are considering doing this. (Check out latest London Cyclist for info here). Also ACPO are being lobbied by Cycling England about training police drivers. I think some simple messages to all drivers raining awareness (Like the Think Bike! campaign for motorcyclie awareness should be developed)

3. Lobby govornment- Some little changes around speed (20mph as standard in urban areas) Driver liability, enforcement of current law (Mobiles, speed )

Oliver, Charlie or anyone else, does anyone know what is currently being taught in schools regarding cycle safety? Today's kids are tomorrows city commuters and education at an early age will hopefully reduce deaths in years to come. Given the rise in popularity of cycling in this country I think it would be a tragedy if yet another generation of people have not been taught basic cycle safety and are left to fend for themselves and learn the hard way.

Kids are being taught to ride assertively according to John Franklins Cycle craft. This is happening in most primary schools across London under the Bikeability Scheme http://www.bikeability.org.uk/

It has 3 levels

At level 1 they are taught how to control their bike

level 2 is about basic road positioning and communication and an understanding of priority
level 3 is using  multi lane road and roundabouts etc.

The same stuff is taught to adults across London.

Awesome.

All major newspapers should be sent a link to a website that explains when and where you can get cycle training, how much it is, and most of all some hard-hitting, bullet point facts and advice about cycling in London.

They should then be encouraged, if not asked nicely to print that website every time they print an article about cycling. Anything, be it ranting about RLJing, promoting a new bike shop, cycle clothing etc etc... This should be rammed down peoples throats like the Look twice for Bikes media campaign promoting extra vigilance for motorcycles.

We've all talked about how bendy buses should be phased out and replaced.
I'm amazed to see such a split in perspective when it comes to the HGV issue.

Even the well-trained drivers of 'safer' and seemingly more predictable vehicles sometimes make mistakes..

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/3425727211_d11ac5db6d_b.jpg
(This was oxford street day before yesterday.)

So, while we must all share the road (and sometimes the curb and sidewalk, too), it makes sense to limit risk in every sensible way that we can.

Cycling training is a good thing, but it's just not enough.
Sometimes, humans err, and that includes drivers (even those who have had sufficient training).

HGVs and other similarly dangerous vehicles
(vehicles in which the driver's view is seriously restricted, vehicles which are difficult to manoeuvre, and which are heavy and need longer to brake)

have** no** place in heavy commuter traffic.
There are more than enough cars, taxis, pedestrians, cyclists, regular buses, and motorbikes to keep the streets busy and dangerous.

HGVs are an unnecessary danger, and should be restricted to off-peak hours.

The irony is that bendy buses has never killed any cyclists.

HGVs and other similarly dangerous vehicles ........have** no** place in heavy commuter traffic.
There are more than enough cars, taxis, pedestrians, cyclists, regular buses, and motorbikes to keep the streets busy and dangerous.

HGVs are an unnecessary danger, and should be restricted to off-peak hours.

TBH I feel safer cycling in heavy traffic where I can ride as fast as or faster than the traffic rather than being overtaken by fast moving vehicles which may be more of the case if you had your way.

Given that HGV's are a necessary evil I guess they are here to stay and ultimately the only way forward is education and particularly to cyclists.

Does anyone have any kind of breakdown of accidents involving cyclists which apportion blame?

Given that HGV's are a necessary evil I guess they are here to stay and ultimately the only way forward is education and particularly to cyclists.

That's the rub-- they're NOT a necessary evil.
They should be restricted to off-peak hours.

This would make the roads safer (not to mention ease congestion).
Why has this not happened yet?

Sure, off peak hours, how are you going to increase driver wages that are obviously going to be demanded to drive at night to do the massive amounts of construction work needed for 2012?

Delivery driving, transport of goods etc, fine I can agree that should be limited to off peak where possible but construction traffic unfortunately IS a necessary evil.

Not to mention the higher average speeds related to off peak hours?

Would you rather rough it with HGVs driving at 10-30mph or be overtaken by a HGV at night barrelling along at 40mph, which I might add, is 100% inevitable because nobody is capable of not speeding from what I've seen. I'm pretty sure I got overtaken by a Merc S Class doing ~70mph past The Ritz at 9pm.

Sure, off peak hours, how are you going to increase driver wages that are obviously going to be demanded to drive at night to do the massive amounts of construction work needed for 2012?

Delivery driving, transport of goods etc, fine I can agree that should be limited to off peak where possible but construction traffic unfortunately IS a necessary evil.

Agreed but even delivery drivers need a recipient at the point of delivery so more and more expense if out of hours. It ain't gonna happen.

Agree Nurseh

Here's a couple of websites giving info about cycle training to forward in any dealings with the press
www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/9065.aspx
www.lcc.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=175

and www.cycletraining.co.uk

Didn't even think of that, although you're more likely to get some cash desperate teenager willing to be present at point of unloading at midnight. The people who are going to demand more money are HGV drivers and supervisors.

On my commute I see plenty of people squeeze themselves up the left hand side of buses and lorries. Sometimes it makes me wince seeing the risks that they're prepared to take to get to work a minute earlier, or win their "race". I often think about saying something, but the one time I did (after a particularly wince-inducing maneouvre for which the bus driver concerned deserves all the praise for avoiding a fatality) the person concerned just looked bemused.

So here's the question. What do you say/do? Can anyone claim a success?

Sure, off peak hours, how are you going to increase driver wages that are obviously going to be demanded to drive at night to do the massive amounts of construction work needed for 2012?

Delivery driving, transport of goods etc, fine I can agree that should be limited to off peak where possible but construction traffic unfortunately IS a necessary evil.

Why can't construction traffic happen before rush hour?
Higher wages shouldn't be the issue here.
If they were demanded, perhaps only those most skilled would be hired to drive.

It's a competitive work-market, and having jobs that require leaving a few hours earlier will not deter someone who needs work.
In fact, starting the work a bit earlier in the day would make construction a bit more efficient (less time wasted transporting goods on the road, and more time spent constructing).
Plus, then the workers could be done by happy hour.

The people who are going to demand more money are HGV drivers and supervisors.

Well, perhaps we should leave those concerns to the large companies that pay the workers.
It's ridiculous to be debating the values of money vs. human life.

Why can't construction traffic happen before rush hour?
Higher wages shouldn't be the issue here.
If they were demanded, perhaps only those most skilled would be hired to drive.

Where's the most skilled cyclists?

Should we restrict cycling?

Not to mention the higher average speeds related to off peak hours?

Would you rather rough it with HGVs driving at 10-30mph or be overtaken by a HGV at night barrelling along at 40mph, which I might add, is 100% inevitable because nobody is capable of not speeding from what I've seen. I'm pretty sure I got overtaken by a Merc S Class doing ~70mph past The Ritz at 9pm.

A lorry cruising down the road at 4:00 a.m. will be encountering fewer cyclists than one driving at 4:00 p.m.

Also, at 4:00 a.m., the driver of a lorry is more likely to be able to see any other people on the road, simply because the roads are otherwise clearer.

If there are speed laws in place, we cannot be arguing in favor of law-breakers.

Where's the most skilled cyclists?

Should we restrict cycling?

Well, gee, NurseHolliday, what do you think?

:/

This isn't a criticism of you personally but do you live your life expecting everyone else to abide by the rules? Or do you have some sort of common sense that dictates that there are law breakers?

People need to stop thinking that there is some sort of Utopian Dreamworld to be made out of London. This place is unique. The demand for cheap accommodation is ridiculous, as long as there is a demand, construction will continue and this means construction traffic. You can fight against it all you want but how does that help in the short term?

Cyclists need to be educated. FAST! Shops should be giving out a cyclists highway code written by real London cyclists not by some pompous idiots who write the car's highway code. It should be given with EVERY new bike, to EVERYONE who pops into a shop. Hell posted to every person in Greater London.

LCC, stand on the side of the road, educate people! People say, "I see riders who have no idea of how to cycle undertaking lorries and buses and I just want to shout at them." SO shout at them. Let them know if they're idiots.

The more we fight against other road users the bigger the backlash will be! Why not educate ourselves?

A lorry cruising down the road at 4:00 a.m. will be encountering fewer cyclists than one driving at 4:00 p.m.

Also, at 4:00 a.m., the driver of a lorry is more likely to be able to see any other people on the road, simply because the roads are otherwise clearer.

If there are speed laws in place, we cannot be arguing in favor of law-breakers.

Have you driven at 4am?

I have, I do it regularly. You expect there to be less people. You slip into a comfort zone you don't in heavy traffic. There might be less cyclists but the risks are SO MUCH HIGHER. One cyclist killed at 4am is a damn sight more painful to see than one killed at 4pm because there's so few people on the road. Not to mention the lack of witnesses if something goes wrong. Start thinking about the real world.

Er... I feel I may be talking a lot but one more point I want to raise, I have forbidden my girlfriend to cycle in central London. I mean that. I have seen her ride in central Manchester and it is so scary to watch. I blame her parents, and some of the shit popular media for their pro cycling drivel. They have some sort of devout belief in the government's cycling campaigns and their rhetoric. I've tried explaining the dangers of cycle lanes, undertaking, and possible dangers in ASLs but she won't listen because for years and years her parents and the media have fed her drivel about using cycle lanes.

She bought a bike earlier this year after a decade off a bike, she jumped on using skills she picked up 10 years ago. How is that safe? Seriously? How many people exactly like her are jumping on a bike this summer? It's the new in thing to do.

I forsee a lot more shit going down this summer.

This isn't a criticism of you personally but do you live your life expecting everyone else to abide by the rules? Or do you have some sort of common sense that dictates that there are law breakers?

You were talking about lorries exceeding speed limit.
No, I don't anticipate that every person abide by every law.
Just the same, if the laws are there, one would hope that most people would make that effort.

People need to stop thinking that there is some sort of Utopian Dreamworld to be made out of London. This place is unique. The demand for cheap accommodation is ridiculous, as long as there is a demand, construction will continue and this means construction traffic. You can fight against it all you want but how does that help in the short term?

Nobody's arguing against construction?!

Cyclists need to be educated. FAST! Shops should be giving out a cyclists highway code written by real London cyclists not by some pompous idiots who write the car's highway code. It should be given with EVERY new bike, to EVERYONE who pops into a shop. Hell posted to every person in Greater London.

LCC, stand on the side of the road, educate people! People say, "I see riders who have no idea of how to cycle undertaking lorries and buses and I just want to shout at them." SO shout at them. Let them know if they're idiots.

I agree that it makes sense to educate each and every road user.
As cyclists we are offered little physical protection, and so it makes every bit of sense to conduct ourselves with that in mind.
We do need to be aware and educated.
However, this alone is not enough, as we cannot always anticipate what another road-user will do.

The more we fight against other road users the bigger the backlash will be! Why not educate ourselves?

This isn't fighting 'against' other road users.
This is about making the roads safer for all road users by compromising with a small portion of road users-- HGVs-- about the ways in which the roads are shared.