Recent HGV/cyclist accidents

[quote=Cajeta;627052]Why can't construction traffic happen before rush hour?
Higher wages shouldn't be the issue here.

quote]

Take cement deliveries as an example - Most of the bigger sites using readymix have deliveries throughout the day, usually being poured into a single concrete pump to raise it up the building. Concrete starts setting as soon as it's mixed and a day's worth cannot simply be delivered in the morning. Even if that were possible it would require many more trucks to deliver in your tight timeslot and what would the drivers do for the rest of the day? It simply will not work.

Additionally, what about the people that live and sleep in London. Do they really want construction sites starting at 6am or earlier?

Seriously, forget about getting trucks of the road during daytime hours. It will never happen.

Have you driven at 4am?

I have, I do it regularly. You expect there to be less people. You slip into a comfort zone you don't in heavy traffic. There might be less cyclists but the risks are SO MUCH HIGHER. One cyclist killed at 4am is a damn sight more painful to see than one killed at 4pm because there's so few people on the road. Not to mention the lack of witnesses if something goes wrong. Start thinking about the real world.

The risks of which you speak are risks associated with a cyclist who is not aware, and who needs to be educated about the dangers of city roads.

[quote=Cajeta;627052]Why can't construction traffic happen before rush hour?
Higher wages shouldn't be the issue here.

quote]

Take cement deliveries as an example - Most of the bigger sites using readymix have deliveries throughout the day, usually being poured into a single concrete pump to raise it up the building. Concrete starts setting as soon as it's mixed and a day's worth cannot simply be delivered in the morning. Even if that were possible it would require many more trucks to deliver in your tight timeslot and what would the drivers do for the rest of the day? It simply will not work.

Additionally, what about the people that live and sleep in London. Do they really want construction sites starting at 6am or earlier?

Seriously, forget about getting trucks of the road during daytime hours. It will never happen.

This is sadly the truth- any sort of ban on HGV's quite simply will never, ever happen.

The most that our present government would be prepared to do (going on their history so far) would be to use congestion charging/ANPR cameras to impose an even heavier tax on large vehicles going into central London during the day.

A cost which every company would just pass onto the building/whatever industry.

It would be fantastic to have Londons roads free of all but human powered traffic, but as this is an impossible dream-we have to deal with the situation in which we find ourselves now.

Hey Dammit, how are you healing up? Back on 2 wheels yet?
Coincidently, I was looking for the report on your accident to refer to as IIRC you were hit from behind late in the evening when the roads were probably quieter???

I have forbidden my girlfriend to cycle in central London.

I'll let that comment speak for itself.

I mean that. I have seen her ride in central Manchester and it is so scary to watch. I blame her parents, and some of the shit popular media for their pro cycling drivel. They have some sort of devout belief in the government's cycling campaigns and their rhetoric. I've tried explaining the dangers of cycle lanes, undertaking, and possible dangers in ASLs but she won't listen because for years and years her parents and the media have fed her drivel about using cycle lanes.

She bought a bike earlier this year after a decade off a bike, she jumped on using skills she picked up 10 years ago. How is that safe? Seriously? How many people exactly like her are jumping on a bike this summer? It's the new in thing to do.

I forsee a lot more shit going down this summer.

Well, we can encourage cycling: help people to learn how to cycle safely, and make every effort to make roads safer for cyclists so that the number of people on bikes increases.

Or, we can-- like you-- insist that the roads are for lorries and speed-limit breakers, and discourage and/or forbid any other would-be cyclists from a chance to share the roads.

I'm back on the bike again- a bit slower than I was however!

The Police have sent me a nice letter saying that they will send me a report on what happened next week sometime. I can remember nothing of the incident.

No HGV's involved for me, so nothing to contribute to this thread from that perspective.

Or, we can-- like you-- insist that the roads are for lorries and speed-limit breakers, and discourage and/or forbid any other would-be cyclists from a chance to share the roads.

I would sincerely hope that no one is making that suggestion, even tongue in cheek.

We can all use the roads safely, education is all it takes regarding the risks that are apparent to us, but seemingly not to a lot of other cyclists.

[quote=wvm;627083] This is sadly the truth- any sort of ban on HGV's quite simply will never, ever happen.

The most that our present government would be prepared to do (going on their history so far) would be to use congestion charging/ANPR cameras to impose an even heavier tax on large vehicles going into central London during the day.

A cost which every company would just pass onto the building/whatever industry.

It would be fantastic to have Londons roads free of all but human powered traffic, but as this is an impossible dream-we have to deal with the situation in which we find ourselves now.

Nice dream, sadly, I agree that ^^ that would be impossible.
What I've suggested is actually far more achievable.
Not a ban on motor vehicles, not a ban on HGVs.
Simply some compromises being made about which hours large, heavy, dangerous vehicles should be driven on these roads that are otherwise thick with traffic, including human-powered traffic.

I'm back on the bike again- a bit slower than I was however!

The Police have sent me a nice letter saying that they will send me a report on what happened next week sometime. I can remember nothing of the incident.

No HGV's involved for me, so nothing to contribute to this thread from that perspective.

Glad to hear you're back on the bike. Are you slower because of injuries or getting your nerve back? I came off late last year (just a metal cover and me involved) and rode much slower for a while. Back up to full speed now though :)

HGV are not the evil. are just big and heavy vehicles as opposite to cyclists that are tiny and "naked" (in the sense of no protection at all in case of a collision). in the same way is clear that no road user or driver wants to kill somebody. distraction is one of the main reasons of dangerous situations on the roads.
at the same time lorries are necessary to keep this city running and as business seems to be the main concern of our society a ban is not an option, probably a regulation would not be "accepted" either or drivers would be pushed to move faster in the available windows to maximize productivity.
I think that the most productive thing we can do is make new or unexperienced cyclists aware of what are the dangerous situation on the roads.
we are a forum with over 5000 active members and most ride in london.
what about using all this people to distribute something like a leaflet, brochure or whatever where we explain basic points of cycling safely in a heavy traffic environment. give it away at traffic lights, put it on every single bike chained around...pass it on in some way.
I know it's a lot of paper and we would need to prepare it and some how find the money to print it but I'm convinced would be a good direct targeting.not a solution but would rise awareness.

what do you think?

(Originally Posted by Cajeta: * Or, we can-- like you-- insist that the roads are for lorries and speed-limit breakers, and discourage and/or forbid any other would-be cyclists from a chance to share the roads.*)

I would sincerely hope that no one is making that suggestion, even tongue in cheek.

Ahem:

Not to mention the higher average speeds related to off peak hours?
Would you rather rough it with HGVs driving at 10-30mph or be overtaken by a HGV at night barrelling along at 40mph, which I might add, is 100% inevitable because nobody is capable of not speeding from what I've seen. I'm pretty sure I got overtaken by a Merc S Class doing ~70mph past The Ritz at 9pm.

Where's the most skilled cyclists?
Should we restrict cycling?

one more point I want to raise, I have forbidden my girlfriend to cycle in central London.

cough

We can all use the roads safely, education is all it takes regarding the risks that are apparent to us, but seemingly not to a lot of other cyclists.

Eilidh was an educated cyclist, as are many others who have been injured or killed on London roads.
We can educate ourselves, but education is not 'all it takes'.
Education (for cyclists and drivers) is necessary, but I fear it's just not enough.

Eilidh was an educated cyclist, as are many others who have been injured or killed on London roads.
We can educate ourselves, but education is not 'all it takes'.
Education (for cyclists and drivers) is necessary, but I fear it's just not enough.

That's a fair, and very sad, point.

I retract my previous assertion.

Education helps, but does not solve everything.

I'll let that comment speak for itself.

Well, we can encourage cycling: help people to learn how to cycle safely, and make every effort to make roads safer for cyclists so that the number of people on bikes increases.

Or, we can-- like you-- insist that the roads are for lorries and speed-limit breakers, and discourage and/or forbid any other would-be cyclists from a chance to share the roads.

Sorry, I meant to add a proviso, until she stops believing in bullshit and does some cycle training.

[quote=Dammit;627089]

Nice dream, sadly, I agree that ^^ that would be impossible.
What I've suggested is actually far more achievable.
Not a ban on motor vehicles, not a ban on HGVs.
Simply some compromises being made about which hours large, heavy, dangerous vehicles should be driven on these roads that are otherwise thick with traffic, including human-powered traffic.

Where's our compromise? Compromise needs to go in every direction.

Where's our compromise? Compromise needs to go in every direction.

We're already seriously compromised, my dear.
It's time for a shift in perspective.

I'll let that comment speak for itself.

Well, we can encourage cycling: help people to learn how to cycle safely, and make every effort to make roads safer for cyclists so that the number of people on bikes increases.

Or, we can-- like you-- insist that the roads are for lorries and speed-limit breakers, and discourage and/or forbid any other would-be cyclists from a chance to share the roads.

Where did I say that? Did you read everything I said, or just the bits that pissed you off? I talked about ways of educating cyclists.

I don't encourage speed limit breaking, I don't encourage dangerous driving, I encourage cycling. I'm just a realist here and standing back and pinning the blame on everyone else isn't helping.

I'm not talking about long term goals, I'm talking about changes we can try and make in the coming weeks and months. If you're run over by a car what's the first thing you do to try and stop it happening again? Become a more observant cyclist or campaign for better driving?

Perhaps I'm being a pessimist but as the interest in cycling in the capital increases at the current rate I can only see more accidents. Nobody here wants to see that. Nobody at all. I am not suggesting we don't try and educate drivers, yes, do that, more and more. But at the same time educate ourselves, and do that first.

It doesn't matter how good and safe a rider you are there's always room for improvement. Just on Wednesday I thought I had been doing well recently, no near misses, nothing to cause me to shout at drivers and then right at the last second, a boy racer in a Clio doing about 60mph in a 30mph zone came from the wrong side of the road, missed me by inches to turn left in front of me. I didn't even have time to react, I only didn't crash into him because, dare I say it, either he was an exceptional driver or he got very fucking lucky. Now I did nothing wrong, should I get on tree tops and sing about speeding drivers and being cut up? Or should I have checked one last time as I approached the junction for anything at all that could have harmed me. I think the latter will help me stay alive, the former is something to campaign on over a long period.

Just like HGV drivers are expected to look absolutely everywhere at every millisecond of the time behind the wheel, so should we. Of course there are times when incidents are unavoidable due to driver error, and the same applies to cyclists. How would we feel if instead of all of us shouting about cycle training it was HGV drivers. Imagine a Critical Mass of lorries? It would be mayhem.

Edit: Just adding, when it is driver error then they should be tried seriously, not some stupid slap on the wrist. Where it is proved that the driver failed to drive in a safe manner then he or she should be punished to the full extent of the law.

Where did I say that? Did you read everything I said, or just the bits that pissed you off? I talked about ways of educating cyclists.

I don't encourage speed limit breaking, I don't encourage dangerous driving, I encourage cycling. I'm just a realist here and standing back and pinning the blame on everyone else isn't helping.

No, but you're not being realistic in the sense that you seem to be convinced that the status quo is not only something we must currently acknowledge, but something that is acceptable.

I'm not talking about long term goals, I'm talking about changes we can try and make in the coming weeks and months. If you're run over by a car what's the first thing you do to try and stop it happening again?** Become a more observant cyclist or campaign for better driving?**

The answer is BOTH.
And long-term goals SHOULD be considered, as well as addressing whatever immediate concerns that we can.

Perhaps I'm being a pessimist but as the interest in cycling in the capital increases at the current rate I can only see more accidents. Nobody here wants to see that. Nobody at all.

That's not pessimistic, that's logical: probability, innit.
This is why we need to look not just at educating people of the current dangers, but also the bigger picture and to establish some long term goals to make the roads safer for this increase in traffic.

I am not suggesting we don't try and educate drivers, yes, do that, more and more. But at the same time educate ourselves, and do that first.It doesn't matter how good and safe a rider you are there's always room for improvement. Just on Wednesday I thought I had been doing well recently, no near misses, nothing to cause me to shout at drivers and then right at the last second, a boy racer in a Clio doing about 60mph in a 30mph zone came from the wrong side of the road, missed me by inches to turn left in front of me. I didn't even have time to react, I only didn't crash into him because, dare I say it, either he was an exceptional driver or he got very fucking lucky. Now I did nothing wrong, should I get on tree tops and sing about speeding drivers and being cut up? Or should I have checked one last time as I approached the junction for anything at all that could have harmed me. I think the latter will help me stay alive, the former is something to campaign on over a long period.

Just like HGV drivers are expected to look absolutely everywhere at every millisecond of the time behind the wheel, so should we. Of course there are times when incidents are unavoidable due to driver error, and the same applies to cyclists. How would we feel if instead of all of us shouting about cycle training it was HGV drivers. Imagine a Critical Mass of lorries? It would be mayhem.

Yes, no one here denies that educating cyclists and drivers is important.

We can all agree that even educated people are liable to occasionally make a mistake.
This is precisely why a small percentage of road users-- HGVs-- should have certain restrictions imposed so that the majority of people (i.e., those not driving HGVs) have option to a fair and safer share of the road.

The fact is that HGV's are more difficult to manoeuvre, and cannot react as quickly as other vehicles (hence the lower speed limits).
The drivers have difficulty seeing, and other road-sharers have difficulty both being seen, and seeing around these vehicles.
Not only that, but it does seem that being hit by an HGV carries a higher chance of fatality than collisions with other vehicles.
The probability of injury and or death by such vehicles would certainly be reduced by restricting them from heavily trafficked areas during peak hours.

No, but you're not being realistic in the sense that you seem to be convinced that the status quo is not only something we must currently acknowledge, but something that is acceptable.

The answer is BOTH.
And long-term goals SHOULD be considered, as well as addressing whatever immediate concerns that we can.

That's not pessimistic, that's logical: probability, innit.
This is why we need to look not just at educating people of the current dangers, but also the bigger picture and to establish some long term goals to make the roads safer for this increase in traffic.

Yes, no one here denies that educating cyclists and drivers is important.

We can all agree that even educated people are liable to occasionally make a mistake.
This is precisely why a small percentage of road users-- HGVs-- should have certain restrictions imposed so that the majority of people (i.e., those not driving HGVs) have option to a fair and safer share of the road.

The fact is that HGV's are more difficult to manoeuvre, and cannot react as quickly as other vehicles (hence the lower speed limits).
The drivers have difficulty seeing, and other road-sharers have difficulty both being seen, and seeing around these vehicles.
Not only that, but it does seem that being hit by an HGV carries a higher chance of fatality than collisions with other vehicles.
The probability of injury and or death by such vehicles would certainly be reduced by restricting them from heavily trafficked areas during peak hours.

OK I think we're starting to converge here, I totally agree with you, I just don't hold much hope with achieving the reduction in HGVs. However, I support any tracks made in that direction because it's definitely a very good thing.

I feel I may have made some enemies on here within this thread....

Just for clarification, when I expressed my "forbidding" actions to my girlfriend, I didn't mean this in a sexist way whatsoever, I just used this example because I believe she is the classic case of the most vulnerable cyclist on London's roads. I don't think just because she's a girl she can't ride well, I thought I explained my reasons later in that post. If I was a girl, and she was a boy and it was the same situation I would feel the same way. And it's not her fault either, she listens to her parents who unfortunately teach her the wrong thing. Despite the fact I clearly have more cycling experience than either of them, she thinks her dad knows whats going on because he's French and he used to sit on the side of the road and watch TdF go past....

Right listen you two. I'm going away for a couple of days and I trust by the time I get back you will have a) put this debate to bed, b) come up with a solution for world peace,c) rid the world of famine, pestilence, plague and suffering in general and d) shaken hands.

don't start the debate above again - but I've read this and think this might be an angle not considered. HSE - they makes a point about SMIDSY and the HSE and I'm really wondering...

http://crapwalthamforest.blogspot.com/2010/07/road-casualties-and-farce-of-health-and.html

Good Link Alien, thanks...

don't start the debate above again - but I've read this and think this might be an angle not considered. HSE - they makes a point about SMIDSY and the HSE and I'm really wondering...

http://crapwalthamforest.blogspot.com/2010/07/road-casualties-and-farce-of-health-and.html

As usual he is a bit slow on the uptake. We have campaigned successfully to maintain funding for the Met police CVU, the only people in the country who are enforcing health and safety law against rogue transport operators.