Knee Pain

I've just got some MRI results back. Apparently I have a "degenerative tear of the middle and posterior thirds of the medial meniscus" on both knees, plus some general degeneration of the joint compartments and "mild oedema in the basal layers of the hyaline cartilage on both facets of the patella" (on both knees, but the right is worse).

My general interpretation of all this is that I've been giving my knees some serious hammer over quite some time probably with poor biomechanics that have led to a greater than usual degree of wear and tear. Since I'm having no-to-minimal mechanical symptoms (locking etc.) I'm going to avoid surgery for the meniscal tears as I'm having ongoing physio and have a biomechanical assessment lined up. However, it would be useful to get a better picture of exactly where the tears are. Does anyone have the medical skills to infer a bit more detail from "tear of the middle and posterior thirds of the medial meniscus"?

Finally, does anyone have any experience of barefoot running with dodgy knees? Anecdotes are welcome, but serious collections of evidence would be more useful.

Is it wise to be running when you've just got that diagnosis? Don't intend to come across arsey, but surely you want to give yourself every chance of recovery.

Is it wise to be running when you've just got that diagnosis? Don't intend to come across arsey, but surely you want to give yourself every chance of recovery.

Fair point, I'm not running at the moment and I haven't for a long time. Annoyingly I was planning to gently get back into running on the very week that I suffered the injury that prompted these scans (I sprained my medial collateral ligament running for a bus). I was planning to get back into running because I feared that doing lots of cycling and no running was making my knees unbalanced and weak in terms of supporting themselves. I was considering trying barefoot running as I'm quite a flat-footed runner and a heavy heel-striker, which I think could account for some of the hammer that my knees have taken.

Running helped me sort out my knees, no idea if it'd help you though.

Paging Bluerip00

Pretty sure I've had runner's knee for the last 15 years now. Used to run a lot in my teens (cross country and 400m). Got bad knees when I was 15, saw a specialist through my dads BUPA, had an MRI and an isotope scan and got told my knee pads were rubbing together irritating my cartilage. Unfortunately shortly after that my dad was made redundant and didn't have BUPA anymore so nothing more was done. NHS doc told me to stop running and gave me shitloads of ibruprofen.

Have been back many times about my knee and been sent to various physios with no results. I stopped running and doing stressful exercise and still I have pain. Last year a physio sent me to a podiatrist as he noticed I walked funny and I had hip bursitis. Turns out one of my legs is about 2 inches shorter than the other, they gave me orthotics to wear in my shoes and that resolved my hip problem but my knee seems to have just gotten worse. Just walking the 10 mins from the train station to my house is really painful and walking downstairs is a nightmare as sometimes my knee gives way and I can't put any weight on it.

Went out for a longish ride (for me anyway) on Sunday and my knee has been swollen ever since.

I have an appointment next week with a new GP surgery so we'll see what they suggest.

My mum had her knee cap removed when she was 24 which didn't seem to help her (mind you this was probably because they forgot to but a new one in!)

Sounds awful. Have you tried going to a private physio? Went my GP for my knee years ago, asking for a referral to BUPA through my company, but he didn't even want to give me that. He said same as yours, stop doing x, in my case cycling.

Private physio sorted it though. As they're keen to fix stuff and get you going again, rather than just getting rid of symptoms, maybe that could help?

........ I was considering trying barefoot running as I'm quite a flat-footed runner and a heavy heel-striker, which I think could account for some of the hammer that my knees have taken.

As I understand it you don't run on your heels when barefoot running you sort of run on your toes so that your foot spreads the shock. It's almost like you're falling forward when you're running and you take shorter steps. If you've got iffy knees then learning an alien technique will probably not help and I expect any form of impact training is probably detrimental. Ride a gentler gear until you know what damage you might be doing/have already done.

Yeah I've been looking at private physios and osteopaths. I'll see what my doc says and if it's crap I'll do that.

I don't think I can get BUPA as it is a pre-existing condition.

Sounds horrific! Fucking clowns with medical degrees didn't spot your leg length discrepancy!

Read online (sheldon?) about a similar guy who inched down, rode fixed, and it helped his knees.

Running helped me sort out my knees, no idea if it'd help you though.

Paging Bluerip00

Just back from annual leave hence quiet recently!

Kat Balou - your situation sounds common. A leg length of that discrepancy should have been spotted by all the professionals that you have seen (assuming they actually physically assessed you). The knee cap issue is also common and while the orthotics will correct the length they will not change the way your legs work and the control around your knee without stability training and resistance work. Let me know how you go with your GP. Feel free to PM any queries.

And please stop popping NSAIDs everyone, particularly for acute trauma and injuries, even if they have been prescribed, as they are proven to impair soft-tissue healing by impeding vital chemical reactions.

Yeah I try not to take NSAIDs as my mum took them for years and eventually got s stomach ulcer.

Riddle me this, Knee thread...

After track on Saturday, and then Monday last week my knees ached all week, so I laid off riding and just did some stretching... But they still hurt. I waited, but no results, so feeling a bit on edge I did a 55minute turbo session (3x10 min threshold efforts, around 95rpm with a proper warm up /down) before I went away for the weekend. Haven't experienced any knee pain since.

It's something that I have experienced before (last time was probably 18months ago, before having a cleat fitting with scherrit): knees hurting when I'm off the bike for a week. Is this just my knees adjusting to track cadences? My normal riding cadence is between 90-100rpm whereas I seem to be anywhere between 100-170ish on the track.

^ I've got the same thing if I don't run often enough. Need to do it at least once a week, or knees goes achy

Tempted to start running again. Knees recently haven't been that bad at all. Still playing around with positions on the bike and It's really helping. Stretching every day and have started circuit training at home, sometimes on the squats or step ups on the chair the knee is a little sore but it's manageable.

Lovely nights like we're having at the moment are calling out for a run!

It's really interesting to hear how variable everyone's knee problems are and how one person's cause seems to be another persons remedy.

I dislocated my knee playing football years ago and had nothing nothing but problems. It would ache in the winter and click almost continually. If I spent all day walking, whether just going round town shopping, or more strenuous activities like running or hiking It would always swell up by the evening. When I saw a specialist I was told that there was a cyst on the knee but that surgery wouldn't do anything and I wasn't given any options with regards to physio, just told basically it's something you're going to have to deal with.

When I moved to London a couple of years ago I started cycling again and the transformation has been incredible, this winter I've had no problems at all, it hardly clicks and never swells up. Just got back from holiday in Sicily where me and the missus hiked up an active volcano (3 hours up and 2 back down). After something like that my knee would have usually ballooned in the evening but nothing at all, so for now at least riding seems to have sorted my problems out.

Once you start stretching and using a foam roller it seems you can't stop; I didn't bother as I've only been commuting and not doing 'big' rides last 3 weeks and inner right knee and outer left knee began grumbling. Alot.

Was in proper pain when I got up this morning so I did 15 mins of foam roller on ITB and quads and ham/quad stretches and pain disappeared almost immediately.

I always feel a bit like a dog rubbing myself against a post when I'm using a foam roller

You keep it on the floor yea?

Been to doc, they are referring me to a senior physio for some possible scans and a potential referral to an orthopaedic surgeon. Joy.

My knees ache for a day or so after a long/hard ride, mainly towards the front of the inner side. I had a fairly basic bike fit when I got my road bike so I'm not sure whether to go for a more comprehensive one somewhere that includes cleats/etc (£££) or to the doctor (free but not a cyclist)...

doctor is a waste of time if you ask me. A physio, preferably with a speciality in cyclists could help, but a decent bike fitter will most likely be the best solution. I recommend the bike whisperer myself. He did wonders for me

I won't be able to afford that for a while and he does have a 6-week lead time, so maybe that's something for the future... For now I'll just have to play with cleat positions but it's weird that it hurts more sitting down than riding gently.

6 weeks goes quick. Book it!

If nothing else so for the revelation of leaving there with what seems to be 10% stronger legs. One of my best rides I've had. Until my chain snapped along the M40....