Which Groupset?

I did. 439 watts and a twig in your derailleur =

twig > Boonen

^^ gear hanger broke, unless the derailleur is fucked as well.

Yes it was

Shima-no derailleur then.

I did. 439 watts and a twig in your derailleur =

See? Shimano sacrifices itself to save your frame.

I did. 439 watts and a twig in your derailleur =

Bloody came of your finger.

After a 10 speed group for a Ti Audax/light tourer.

Considering various flavours of Centaur and the soon to be heavily discounted 105: what is the SRAM offering I should be considering?

Are external BB a daft idea for a bike where durability is valued over performance?

Not a touring advice but by the looks of it 11 speed 105 is just £35 more than 10 speed if you can wait .. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-105-5800-11-speed-groupset/rp-prod116477

for touring specific advice scoble will be here soon

But surely 5700 prices will be dropped when 5800 is actually available?

At the 105 price point you'd be looking at Apex, at the Centaur price point you'd be looking at Rival.

I haven't been that impressed so far by external BBs in terms of durability, at least where water is concerned. My next winter bike will definitely have an internal BB.

Not sure 5700 prices will drop that much - 6700 prices haven't, which makes them look even less attractive compared to 6800.

Wouldn't that rather limit your crankset options?

Well, I could use any of the 3 Campag 10 speed square taper cranksets I've got at the moment, or I could get another one. They're hardly thin on the ground, and a crankset is after all just a metal stick with some holes in. OK, if I wanted carbon I'd have to hunt down another of the rather rare Record carbon square taper cranks, but that seems overkill on a winter bike.

^^^ That's incredibly good value.

^^ was thinking about 11spd

In that case, yep, square taper could be an issue - I don't know if 10 speed chainrings would work with 11 speed, although I suspect they would. If not you could always fit 11 speed chainrings on a 10 speed square taper chainset, although that would presumably end up being rather spendy.

I expected 10 speed would offer the best value: it's tried & tested and there's established, aftermarket competition to keep prices keen.

I haven't been that impressed so far by external BBs in terms of durability, at least where water is concerned. My next winter bike will definitely have an internal BB.

But BBs are incredibly cheap, and external ones don't suffer from the myriad problems associated with square taper cranks. If you have to replace you BB every year, so what? It's quick, easy and cheap.

Price differential is not that great and 11spd is well tested by now.

Won't 11 speed wear faster: 11 speed must be at the limits of what can be squeezed into 130mm, so the drivetrain must operate at pretty fine tolerances and without much leeway?

didnt people say the same about 10 speed in the 9 speed era?

Dunno; coming straight from 8 speed.

But you have more sprockets in 11 speed so the wear is spread out? #noidea

Won't 11 speed wear faster?

There's no particular reason to think so, the chain roller and sprocket width hasn't changed since the great leap forward to 9s.

But BBs are incredibly cheap, and external ones don't suffer from the myriad problems associated with square taper cranks. If you have to replace you BB every year, so what? It's quick, easy and cheap.

I've never had any problems with square taper cranks in the past. On every other bike (except the vintage ones) I'd agree that external BBs are superior. But this is for the winter bike. Maintenance is supposed to be limited to scraping the crud off once it gets deep enough to plow.

And replacing Campag Veloce BBs is a massive PITA due to the massive PITA which are PowerTorque cranks.