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For there can be peace and prosperity at the smallest of prices. The Palestinians need only say that they will allow Israel to exist in peace. They need only say this tiny thing, and mean it, and there is pretty much nothing they cannot have.
Yet they will not say it. And they will not mean it. For they do not want the Jews. Again and again - again and again - the Palestinians have been offered a nation state in a divided Palestine. And again and again they have turned the offer down, for it has always been more important to drive out the Jews than to have a Palestinian state. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article5461544.eceDoes this statement stand up to scrutiny? I have lived through Oslo, camp David and two intifada's. I have seen Israeli intransigence on settlement building and I have seen seemingly endless Israel military operations. I have no love for Israel. However if your aim is a Palestinian state why launch rockets? why not instead start to build the infrastructure of state? Do you ever get the impression that the Palestinians have a tendancy to cut off their nose to spite their face. I mean really what did they expect?
I disagree. Some Palestinians have said they recognise Israel's right to exist. But Israel keeps building settlements on the West Bank. Israel keeps using legal loopholes to destroy Palestinian homes to clear land for more settlements. Israel refuses to allow East Jerusalem to be the capital of an independent Palestinian state. Israel has refused right of return to those who were driven from their homes in 1948.
The bottom line is that Israel wants all of the West Bank (including all of Jerusalem) to pretty much coincide with the area know as Eretz Israel. That has been the plan since day one.
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I disagree. Some Palestinians have said they recognise Israel's right to exist. But Israel keeps building settlements on the West Bank. Israel keeps using legal loopholes to destroy Palestinian homes to clear land for more settlements. Israel refuses to allow East Jerusalem to be the capital of an independent Palestinian state. Israel has refused right of return to those who were driven from their homes in 1948.
The bottom line is that Israel wants all of the West Bank (including all of Jerusalem) to pretty much coincide with the area know as Eretz Israel. That has been the plan since day one.
I have to agree on settlements. If there has been one single issue that has more negatively affected the Israeli case for peaceful coexistance it surely has to be the continued building of settlements. To my mind settlement building is as provocative as launching rocket attacks. Do you have any up to date data on settlement building 2007 - 2008? I know that they dismantled settlements in Gaza but I don't know the state of play regarding settlements in the West bank.
Regarding refugees with the exception of Jordon none of the neighbouring Arab states have ever lifted a finger to help the Palestinian refugees. Stated policy of the Arab league is to use them as a political pawn. [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees[/ame]
As to Jerusalem and the West Bank - Camp david 2000
*"Ehud Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% (after many years - see section on territory) of the West Bank, and all of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. But before any gradual Israeli withdrawal, all Palestinian terrorist infrastructure must be dismantled. Arafat, however, refused *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Jerusalem_and_the_Temple_Mount
Clinton bent over backwards at Camp David for a two state solution - one of the reasons I think Obama has chosen Hillary as Secretary of State.
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Politics drinks anyone?
You think the members of this forum can have drinks, debate current events and politics, and it not all go tits up?
Also, if this could ever take off (I'm sure it would be interesting!), would it be possible to respect each other's right to the "wrong" view, as much as your own.
IMO it would be good to talk about the indigenous Chinese view of Tibetans and Taiwanese, and vice versa. Likewise, Socialists, and what they think that America is now a Socialist country, in their governmental support of banks and their car industry. Its a long way (along the same road) from the Tennessee Valley Authority (politcos will get this).
Interesting also to hear Thatcherites defending her (temporarily?) broken capitalist legacy. Oh yes, and talk might even turn to how moderate Jews have such an ideological chasm with their more financially supported kin.
If anyone is brave enough, Islam might be discussed. Nomex apparel recommended.
All that, and lots of beer. ...............Disaster/Success.
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I have to agree on settlements. If there has been one single issue that has more negatively affected the Israeli case for peaceful coexistance it surely has to be the continued building of settlements. To my mind settlement building is as provocative as launching rocket attacks. Do you have any up to date data on settlement building 2007 - 2008? I know that they dismantled settlements in Gaza but I don't know the state of play regarding settlements in the West bank.
Regarding refugees with the exception of Jordon none of the neighbouring Arab states have ever lifted a finger to help the Palestinian refugees. Stated policy of the Arab league is to use them as a political pawn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees
As to Jerusalem and the West Bank - Camp david 2000
*"Ehud Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% (after many years - see section on territory) of the West Bank, and all of the *Gaza Strip* with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. But before any gradual Israeli withdrawal, all Palestinian terrorist infrastructure must be dismantled. Arafat, however, refused *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Jerusalem_and_the_Temple_Mount
Clinton bent over backwards at Camp David for a two state solution - one of the reasons I think Obama has chosen Hillary as Secretary of State.
Well, they were offered a portion of the West Bank, but it was all chopped up and was missing some very key areas. Furthermore, they have been denied East Jerusalem.
The Israelis have continued to build settlements in the West Bank since 2007, but I don't have any figures to hand.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4392481.ece
figures for west bank 'settlements'.
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our media seems anti-israel but in a cringe-worthy, diplomatic, polite, British guise.
You are joking? John Pilger got absolutely hammered for his documentary: Palestine is Still The Issue
on ITV. All the usual default "anti-semetic" labels were thrown at him and ITV.
Sky News certainly doesn't give an even tilt from what I see.
The BBC seem to cower in the shadow of the Israeli lobby.Gary Younge wrote a brill piece in the Independent basically saying, "Being anti-zionist DOES NOT make me anti-semetic"
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A little known fact about the Isreali government, Isreal sold arms to the nazi's. Arms to kill jews, as long as they weren't Isreali jews! Do some research, it's all there.
I'm not pro blowing civilians up but if someone tried to trow me out of my home and take my home and my land, i'd do what is nessisary.
These situations were common in history....lets pick Ireland and England. England invide Ireland, Ireland say fuck off and defend the country, England say "oh these terrorists" and use this description to justify invasion and what amounts to theft.
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+1
+1
Imagine if all football supports were as concerned with politics as they are with football. Hundreds of thousands of people expressing their political will.....instead of eating McDonalds, reading the Sun and watching football with their spare time.
I tell you I think dictation is the only way forward.
Long live CheBeef.
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A little known fact about the Isreali government, Isreal sold arms to the nazi's. Arms to kill jews, as long as they weren't Isreali jews! Do some research, it's all there.
I'm not pro blowing civilians up but if someone tried to trow me out of my home and take my home and my land, i'd do what is nessisary.
These situations were common in history....lets pick Ireland and England. England invide Ireland, Ireland say fuck off and defend the country, England say "oh these terrorists" and use this description to justify invasion and what amounts to theft.
It's not 'England'. It's 'Britain'.
(this is not pedantry, mr pajamas). -
Learn to type, you lazy Nazi...
What does that even mean?
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4392481.ece
figures for west bank 'settlements'.
Thanks for the info. Another thing to keep in mind, is that even when new settlements have not been built, existing settlements have been enlarged.
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Are you so thick that I have to explain the difference between dictatorship and dictation to you?
I seriously didn't realise that he meant 'dictatorship' when he posted that! I'm glad you caught that, because I was scratching my head.
I appreciated the spot-on analysis of the situation in N Ireland, though
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I seriously didn't realise that he meant 'dictatorship' when he posted that! I'm glad you caught that, because I was scratching my head.
I appreciated the spot-on analysis of the situation in N Ireland, though
Yeah, I think our new politics correspondent has shit for brains.
On the other hand, it wasn't he who suggested that Israel (est. 1948) supplied weapons to the Nazi Party (d. 1945). -
A little known fact about the Isreali government, Isreal sold arms to the nazi's. Arms to kill jews, as long as they weren't Isreali jews! Do some research, it's all there.
Fuck those Jews are more devious than I thought!
A government that didn't come into existence until 1947 selling arms to a regime that fell in 1945? Who'd have thought it?
As Platini has pointed out before me.
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Yeah, I think our new politics correspondent has shit for brains.
On the other hand, it wasn't he who suggested that Israel (est. 1948) supplied weapons to the Nazi Party (d. 1945).This guy 'isreali' full of shit. Groan....
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You are joking? John Pilger got absolutely hammered for his documentary: Palestine is Still The Issue
on ITV. All the usual default "anti-semetic" labels were thrown at him and ITV.
Sky News certainly doesn't give an even tilt from what I see.
The BBC seem to cower in the shadow of the Israeli lobby.Gary Younge wrote a brill piece in the Independent basically saying, "Being anti-zionist DOES NOT make me anti-semetic"
Anthropology corner: Arabs and Jews are both semitic races, as are all those said to be descended from Shem.
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+1
Imagine if all football supports were as concerned with politics as they are with football. Hundreds of thousands of people expressing their political will.....instead of eating McDonalds, reading the Sun and watching football with their spare time.
I tell you I think dictation is the only way forward.
Long live CheBeef.
They used to be!
Football hooligan groups were generally either Fascist or Anti-Fascist throughout a major part of the late twentieth century. Thatcher's fault again for all the stopping.
Polkatronixx
the-smiling-buddha
GA2G
deleted
Multi_Grooves
CheBeef
Platini
andyp
Charco
teew
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There's a war going on you know...
Posted by
@DFP
For there can be peace and prosperity at the smallest of prices. The Palestinians need only say that they will allow Israel to exist in peace. They need only say this tiny thing, and mean it, and there is pretty much nothing they cannot have.
Yet they will not say it. And they will not mean it. For they do not want the Jews. Again and again - again and again - the Palestinians have been offered a nation state in a divided Palestine. And again and again they have turned the offer down, for it has always been more important to drive out the Jews than to have a Palestinian state. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article5461544.ece
Does this statement stand up to scrutiny? I have lived through Oslo, camp David and two intifada's. I have seen Israeli intransigence on settlement building and I have seen seemingly endless Israel military operations. I have no love for Israel. However if your aim is a Palestinian state why launch rockets? why not instead start to build the infrastructure of state? Do you ever get the impression that the Palestinians have a tendancy to cut off their nose to spite their face. I mean really what did they expect?