In the news

wait, they looted Evans central workshop off Jamaica Road? When was this? That's fucked up. Those are customers' bikes, they just wanted them fixing... FFS. I'm going back to movie now, can nearly hear it over sirens

i defend no one's actions i applauded vigilante-ism under the threat of riot, now go and smoke a cock you internet cowboy

euph??

@ Catfood, as Hugh Orde says, those are tactics used in Belfast when officers were under live fire, petrol bombs etc. He says not justified here because this isn't (yet, thankfully) quite the same level of insurgency. Baton rounds certainly are bloody serious and I think people have been killed with them.

I'm not sure I agree with him personally, but just trying to answer your question.

bollocks to Hugh Orde's "yet". this isn't a paramilitary insurgency. the total number of guns accessible to these looters must be tiny compared to the paramilitaries in the Troubles and i doubt the the london gangs who can lay their hands on guns (a small subsection of the looters) are interested in shooting police over this either.

A lot of people on here don't seem to understand how law and order in our society works, or doesn't work in this case.

It works because people consent to be governed, and accept the rule of law. That is why we don't have armed cops, or a particularly large police force.

What we are seeing right now is that a large group of people have withdrawn their consent to be governed, and are not respecting the rule of law. If this group is sufficiently large, as we have seen, the existing forces of law may not have the numbers to restore order.

We can postulate various ways in which the imbalance of forces can be altered in the short-term so that order can be restored (water cannon, more police, paramilitarising the police, using the Army, paramilitarising sections of the civil population), but unless we figure out why such a large group of people have withdrawn (however temporarily, spuriously or irrationally) their consent to be governed, and take steps to remedy it, this will all happen again, and we will be forced to warehouse large numbers of people in prison, rather as the US has done.

Using the prison system to control people who have no stake in main-stream society, as has been shown in the US, does not work on any level, economically, socially or ethically, especially in view of the recidivism rates.

I don't think it's helpful to present the case as either condemn or understand. You can both condemn the actions, and try to understand the circumstances that lead to the actions.

Worth quoting again, just in case thread latecomers hadn't seen it yet.

I don't believe that a sufficiently large number of people give their consent in the first place. That applies both to 'rioters' and to supposedly law-abiding people. Often when the rule of law is seemingly in place it's because it's either of no consequence (people's everyday business doesn't put them in conflict with the law and they live largely oblivious of it) or because people are scared of consequences, although they would riot if they could.

But all this goes back to the challenge by the personified laws of Athens to Socrates in Plato's Crito, where they challenge him to show that his life in Athens for many years, without protest against the laws, and while enjoying their benefits, does not amount to tacit acceptance of the laws. There's a fairly strong kind of Socratic irony involved, so the dialogue has to be read very carefully, but I believe that ultimately Socrates is clear that he did not accept the laws (the interpretation is subject to much debate, though).

jv - how does that make any difference to the fact that you defended their actions? you appalling human being.

+1

Also, what the fuck is with the reluctance here to use baton rounds / plastic bullets on rioters?
Or even the water cannon?
On the "mainland" ?
Because "it isnt a British way of policing" or something like that.. are you fucking serious?

Not that I favour any sort of armed policing whatsoever, but the RUC - last time I checked they were still a police force under the remit of the Queen - seemed to never have any problems whatsoever opening up on republicans in the north of Ireland with the plastic bullets at the slightest drop of a hat.
Double standards bullshit.
Perfectly alright for the cops to use them in northern Ireland but totally unacceptable to use them on British citizens.

This is what i've been saying for the last few days, it's completely baffled me.

Slightly different crowd there. Horses for courses and all that.

Rioters are rioters, they're fucking things up for the sake of fucking things up. At least in NI there's a motive, not that means it's justified but what is happening in London now is just mindless fucking around.

Wa happened?

Kid across the street has a substantial history of poor decision making in terms of what's legal.
I feel sorry for the family their are two very sweet younger sisters that my kids love playing with. Parents are okay, It should not be
like this

i'll be seriously suprised if many actually get arrested in Manchester tonight, they will all melt away in different directions to their hoods, unless they're carrying a plasma tv the police aren't gonna do shit, once they've dispersed they'll be free to do the same thing tomorrow, there must have been some organisers with cars or transport to take the looted goods because i see hardly anyone carrying much on any of the footage on tv.

olly - i think you're replying to dublinkevins comments, hoss

ta!

And you could probably describe where I live as Lower Clapton (north end of Hackney Wick, right below Mabley Green). Am I allowed an opinion now?

You categorically do not live in Lower Clapton. :)

You categorically do not live in Lower Clapton. :)

I'd describe it as Hackney Wick, but the East Way is a weird one. It feels like a border.

This thread has gained nearly eighty pages in a day.That's got to be some sort of record.

Might be worth separating out the riot stuff into a new thread, if moderators can be bothered.

would be interesting to get some info on enfield. I know of some black and asian (vietnamese) who are also out there tonight. Sounds like some Enfield residents are proud to be out there showing a visible sign to looters.

But even in the early days of the conflict in northern Ireland, I'm talking pre Bloody Sunday (Jan 1972), the cops there had no problem whatsoever opening up on the population. Look at the battle of the Bogside, they just flooded the entire neighbourhood with tear gas with no hesitation, no waiting around for any discussion from political leaders, just carte blanche for chemical warfare against citizens.

I'd describe it as Hackney Wick, but the East Way is a weird one. It feels like a border.

Lower Clapton ends north of the Kingsmead Estate. The bit closest to Clapton Park is normally known as, er, Clapton Park. Mabley Green is in Homerton, which ends at the Eastway. You live in Hackney Wick. :)

Double standards bullshit.

London isn't a foreign land occupied by the English.

I can smell smoke by the way. I know that I was just making cupcakes with my daughter, but this is from outside.

But even in the early days of the conflict in northern Ireland, I'm talking pre Bloody Sunday (Jan 1972), the cops there had no problem whatsoever opening up on the population. Look at the battle of the Bogside, they just flooded the entire neighbourhood with tear gas with no hesitation, no waiting around for any discussion from political leaders, just carte blanche for chemical warfare against citizens.

sounds great

Anyway, I looted took delivery of my LFGSS cap today and I'm typing these comments while wearing it indoors. It qualifies me to make better-informed comments and to start better-informed rumours.

This thread has been (and is still) amazing in terms of discussion, information and opinion, all formed by people with a very intimate knowledge of the city, riding the streets and neighbourhoods everyday. Truly amazing.

Funny that, I'm wearing two tynan's t-shirts at once.

I'm a property guardian - I go where they put me

Vigilante scum. :)

This is what i've been saying for the last few days, it's completely baffled me.

Rioters are rioters, they're fucking things up for the sake of fucking things up. At least in NI there's a motive, not that means it's justified but what is happening in London now is just mindless fucking around.

I've been an advocate of NI style crowd control for a long time. Unfortunately the legacy of the RUC being targeted with live rounds from crowds clouds the issue somewhat. Look at how many live rounds have been fired at Police in NI compared with any other riot in mainland Britain and the reason a distancing tool, which is all a baton round is, is used there becomes relatively justified.

bollocks to Hugh Orde's "yet". this isn't a paramilitary insurgency. the total number of guns accessible to these looters must be tiny compared to the paramilitaries in the Troubles and i doubt the the london gangs who can lay their hands on guns (a small subsection of the looters) are interested in shooting police over this either.

The police in NI had no problems using plastic bullets when I was growing up, they didn't need to come under live fire or petrol bombs for them to open fire. I don't see why the police shouldn't be able to use deterrents like that if it solves the problem. Though maybe my opinion is just clouded with how things where when I was brought up.

Sounds like some Enfield residents are proud to be out there showing a visible sign to looters.

Proud? They were pissed out their heads and rambling on incoherently about far-left PC laws