Skidding: difference between track and road frame

Tommy - I think it is more complex:
1) Shorter wheelbase would make it easier to unweight the rear wheel, as you do not need to move your weight as far for an equal reduction in normal (perpendicular) force.
2) if you use a front brake to initiate a skid, then the moment (around the front wheel contact patch) will lift the rear wheel more easily with a shorter wheelbase - because the centre of mass is closer (further forward) than for a longer wheelbase... roight?
The tandem thing occurs because the lack of stoker means the centre of mass is much further forward than otherwise..
Please excuse my a-level physics thought-experiment jibberish.

The tandem is an extreme example of a long wheel base, it's easier to consider the extreme then generalise for a thought experiment.

Consider the simplified diagram.

F_1+F_2=M_1+M_2

M_1>M_2 (unless some serious slavery is taking place )

F_1(a+b+c)=M_1(b+c)+M_2*c

As a increases (chain stay length) F_1 must decrease. Now I know on slacker geometry rake tends to increase but head angle decrease so a which would relate to c but that change is alot smaller than what happens to a. Hence all else being equal a long wheel base means easier skid.

I agree with Tommy, I think it's easier to skid on a slacker frame... In my experience, anyway... Coincidentally, I was talking to Ross from BC about this a coupla hours ago...

Was that diagram just lying around your desk Tommy, waiting for this moment?

Its skill for sure but also the power transfer through the stiffness of your new track frame!!!

M_1>M_2 (unless some serious slavery is taking place)

Heh heh heh. Love the strict adherence to "state your assumptions." I think Tommy, you have invented forum physics. +rep!

Was that diagram just lying around your desk Tommy, waiting for this moment?

No but I'm stuck at work, or more to the point maybe a third of of my thesis is down the shitter so I am in a bad mood and I want to be able to feel good by drawing stuff.

Stiffness and skidding is bollocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJEo1HGKMdg

I would've thought it was a simple case of more leverage, but I'm no physicist... I think it's easier to fishtail on a longer frame...

so where you foot weight is with reference to the back wheel, and top tube (plus stem) length, where your hand weight is,

This makes perfect sense to me - Longer top tube, harder to get get weight forward, harder to skid!

this thread has left me speechless..

although I find myself able to say one thing:

You dylans.

this thread has left me speechless..

although I find myself able to say one thing:

You dylans.

Hehehe, can't rep you... ;p

Well said Rob!

Ed - are you trying to take over lethal cunt bag's mantle as the starter of the most pointless threads?

This makes perfect sense to me - Longer top tube, harder to get get weight forward, harder to skid!

Why are you guys on about longer top tubes? Top tube length is a fit issue.

Really.......

add this to the 'threads that are vital' sub-forum, alongside those other indispensible posts: 'mad skilz u bin bustin' and 'how do i hold onto my handlebars?'.

Why are you guys on about longer top tubes? Top tube length is a fit issue.

because if your riding a conversion its prob a frame that's been lying around in an attic/celar - found in a skip etc... therfore it wont be sized to u properly. Plus, road bikes tend to have longer top tubes than track, so the argument stands!

I always thought lateral stiffness would have a affect on skidding....

yawn. a new low

I always thought lateral stiffness would have a affect on skidding....

that's 'an', because of the vowel
'effect', because it's a noun

and lateral stiffness? what? effect on skidding? eh?

is it 7?

sorry for the grammar.....the bb's lateral stiffness....i must be talking shit....lol

as if any of your spods would even notice. get a rear brake if you're too damn weak.

Nice PJ.......................

as if any of your spods would even notice. get a rear brake if you're too damn weak.

I miss you.

because if your riding a conversion its prob a frame that's been lying around in an attic/celar - found in a skip etc... therfore it wont be sized to u properly. Plus, road bikes tend to have longer top tubes than track, so the argument stands!

The attic / sizing argument is bollocks.

Track frames tend to have shorter seat tubes due to the higher bottom bracket, the top tube for a correctly sized bike should be similar.

I could go but still being working I can't be arsed to explain my proof. The diagram proves my point.

don't worry tommy. i know you're right. i believe in you.