Ethical question

anyway, my plan was to do it up, renovate back into something road worthy, and fixed gear... aside from the stuck seat post/ stem/ cranks etc I wanted to know...

is it fundamentally wrong to have it re-sprayed with a different logo on it? will anyone notice? has anyone here done it?

Im a bit confused by this to be honest. I don't think its a question of ethics. You bought a shonky old frame from flea bay and you want to fix it up. Go for it. Who cares what anyone else thinks about your bike as long as your happy with it. What ever you do to it.

If it was me I would make a name up for it and get a local printers to do decals for it job done.

However if you fixed up the frame and tried to pass it off as something else for example back on ebay badged as, say a Hetchins, Dave Yates, whatever then yes that would be snide. Or not? depending on your outlook.

Are you people serious?!?!?!?!??!? You give people such a hard time for conversions, this is a completely fucked idea!!!!!!!
For f*ck's sake, of course this is unethical. Plus it's technically illegal. You do not own the rights to use other people's logo however you like.
Yes of course this happens. Drivers hit bicyclists then call their lawyers before an ambulance too.

If you don't like the bike, yes do what you want, you own the bike, but you don't own other people's name. You do not deserve the right to put their name to something they didn't do!!!!

It's entirely a different story to take a frame, rebuild it, and put your own name to it.
While there are still ethical questions there, at least you're putting your own name on it instead of somebody else's.

And since all the guys here are totally sweating your name and, like, wanna, have your babies, why don't you exploit that sh*t! Make yourself a catch-22 bike. Be a man, put your own name on your work, not somebody else's.

Are you people serious?!?!?!?!??!?

I am, yes.

You give people such a hard time for conversions, this is a completely fucked idea!!!!!!!
For f*ck's sake, of course this is unethical. Plus it's technically illegal.

It's only a bike, this in not Darfur, let him dress his bike up as he likes, I agree it would be dodgy (I save the term 'immoral/unethical' for more lofty concerns) if he were to attempt to pass it off as something it was not when selling - but he has not said he is doing this.

You do not own the rights to use other people's logo however you like.

Of course you can ! Just don't get caught ! :P Your avatar nicked from the BBC weather website is not going to be of interest to the BBC lawyers any more than some bike fan sticking some logos on his bike or someone nicking McDonald's logo for a piss take T-Shirt.

I don't see any of this as a big thing, certainly not an ethical question.

I hope the IOC come down on this bastard like a ton of bricks. ;P

^ look at his "pedals"
he made me feel ashamed

I hope the IOC come down on this bastard like a ton of bricks. ;P

He looks Tibetan

well, would it be a bit weird to get an old frame, and stick Bob Jackson over the top, then pretend its a bob jackson bike? ya get me?

One of my favourite frame builders is Chris Plover, then again Pete Zatoppin is pretty cool too, maybe get some decals with their names on for your ride.

i agree with roxy. i don't think you should put a manufacturers name on a frame that wasn't built by that maker. it wouldn't be the end of the world, but i just reckon it's a bit disrespectful. if i'd spent a career creating up a name for myself building high quality frames i wouldn't be happy seeing people sticking my brand on a rusted conversion bought off ebay.

it devalues the original, no matter how good your original intention is.

well, would it be a bit weird to get an old frame, and stick Bob Jackson over the top, then pretend its a bob jackson bike? ya get me?

Yes, it would be weird.

Why do you want to pretend it's a different bike?

I am, yes.

It's only a bike, this in not Darfur, let him dress his bike up as he likes, I agree it would be dodgy (I save the term 'immoral/unethical' for more lofty concerns) if he were to attempt to pass it off as something it was not when selling - but he has not said he is doing this.

Of course you can ! Just don't get caught ! :P Your avatar nicked from the BBC weather website is not going to be of interest to the BBC lawyers any more than some bike fan sticking some logos on his bike or someone nicking McDonald's logo for a piss take T-Shirt.

I don't see any of this as a big thing, certainly not an ethical question.

Actually, passing off a bike with someone else's logos could devalue the brand, particularly if it happened commonly.

For example, if you saw a slack-geo'd poorly built rust-bucket with Bob Jackson written down the side, you might raise an eyebrow and wonder to yourself if perhaps they're not all that good a framebuilder after all. So BJ is loth to sell decals to anyone to ensure that precisely that does not happen.

To take an example from a different industry where counterfeiting is endemic, Rolex is always very keen to explain to people exactly how the movement should look on an Oyster (the second hand moves smoothly, rather than ticking), because the counterfeits are unreliable and could reflect poorly on the brand if people did not know they were counterfeits. (I used to live in Singapore, which at the time was a bit of a counterfeiting goods hub).

I agree that 'immoral/unethical' is perhaps too hyperbolic language to describe this, but essentially what Yossarian is suggesting will help debase the currency of whichever brand he chooses, and the chances are the bike company in question won't be keen to help him achieve that.

weird but, do what you want.

To take an example from a different industry where counterfeiting is endemic, Rolex is always very keen to explain to people exactly how the movement should look on an Oyster (the second hand moves smoothly, rather than ticking), because the counterfeits are unreliable and could reflect poorly on the brand if people did not know they were counterfeits. (I used to live in Singapore, which at the time was a bit of a counterfeiting goods hub).

This actually happens on a lot of automatic watches.

When I was looking at Omega watches for my 21st all of the automatic ones did this. I was tol that quartz movement is more precise and the watches are cheaper so I went for one of those.

My brother on the other hand has an automatic Rolex which he only wears as a dress watch. He has to set the time correctly every time he puts it on because it always dies.

It's only rolex who call it perpetual though. Sounds very cool.

Granted, I left Singapore twenty years ago. Quartz watches have come on a long way since then.

I am, yes.

It's only a bike, this in not Darfur, let him dress his bike up as he likes, I agree it would be dodgy (I save the term 'immoral/unethical' for more lofty concerns) if he were to attempt to pass it off as something it was not when selling - but he has not said he is doing this.

Of course you can ! Just don't get caught ! :P Your avatar nicked from the BBC weather website is not going to be of interest to the BBC lawyers any more than some bike fan sticking some logos on his bike or someone nicking McDonald's logo for a piss take T-Shirt.

I don't see any of this as a big thing, certainly not an ethical question.

Yes comparing pretty much anything to Darfur is a great way to take the oomph out of the debate, but it's also pointless. So let's move on. "Immoral" and "Unethical" are terms that are used for all levels of discussion, using it to discuss ripping off someone's life work is pretty spot on.

My avatar is not BBC's logo. Also I am in no way alluding to each of my posts being a weather forecast.

This dude is wanting to use a craftsman's name on something that he didn't craft. Would he be happy? Nope.

I'd also say that stealing a large company's logo is very different from exploiting a small independent company. A large company won't feel it, the smaller one can be really hurt by it.

This is definitely, without a doubt, defined as an "ethical question" being that it is a question of one's ethics.

Yoss, you asked because you know that this is a questionable thing to do. Regardless of the ethics, wouldn't you feel kinda dumb doing this? I'd be hella embarrassed!!
It's like telling a girl your a doctor when your hitting on her and then having to back that up on your fifth date, having to buy a beeper and a stethoscope, and eventually the girl's going to figure it out and think you are a complete loser/wack job.

If you don't like the bike you got, sell it, buy a new bike. Or use the bike you got to make it yours, not a fake of someone else's.

Don't be a fake!!!!

....but yes, as Tynan so brilliantly put it, of course you can [do this], but like Jeff Goldblum said in Jurassic Park, Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Yes comparing pretty much anything to Darfur is a great way to take the oomph out of the debate, but it's also pointless. So let's move on. "Immoral" and "Unethical" are terms that are used for all levels of discussion, using it to discuss ripping off someone's life work is pretty spot on.

My avatar is not BBC's logo. Also I am in no way alluding to each of my posts being a weather forecast.

This dude is wanting to use a craftsman's name on something that he didn't craft. Would he be happy? Nope.

I'd also say that stealing a large company's logo is very different from exploiting a small independent company. A large company won't feel it, the smaller one can be really hurt by it.

This is definitely, without a doubt, defined as an "ethical question" being that it is a question of one's ethics.

Yoss, you asked because you know that this is a questionable thing to do. Regardless of the ethics, wouldn't you feel kinda dumb doing this? I'd be hella embarrassed!!
It's like telling a girl your a doctor when your hitting on her and then having to back that up on your fifth date, having to buy a beeper and a stethoscope, and eventually the girl's going to figure it out and think you are a complete loser/wack job.

If you don't like the bike you got, sell it, buy a new bike. Or use the bike you got to make it yours, not a fake of someone else's.

Don't be a fake!!!!

....but yes, as Tynan so brilliantly put it, of course you can [do this], but like Jeff Goldblum said in Jurassic Park, Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Would broadly agree except that there are exceptions to the rule - like if it's obvious you're not passing off the bike as something it's not, but rather are trying to make some kind of joke using the other brand identity. Like painting an old Raleigh Shopper in lurid 80s colours and sticking a Colnago decal on the side, or something.

I don't know exactly what effect Yossarian's trying to achieve, though - care to enlighten us Yoss?

I'd also say that stealing a large company's logo is very different from exploiting a small independent company. A large company won't feel it, the smaller one can be really hurt by it.

eh? one or t'other I would have thought Roxy - otherwise who's to decide at what level/size of company it becomes 'ok' to distort or appropriate their identity?

i've got reynolds decals on my carbolite peugeot tourer, simply because a) i wish i had a reynolds frame, and b) i liked the super tourist logos on the decal.

anyone with any knowledge could tell straight away it wasn't reynolds tubing, but i don't care, i haven't done it to fool anyone

I'd also say that stealing a large company's logo is very different from exploiting a small independent company. A large company won't feel it, the smaller one can be really hurt by it.

eh? one or t'other I would have thought Roxy - otherwise who's to decide at what level/size of company it becomes 'ok' to distort or appropriate their identity?

small independent such as for instance Brixton Cycles, one bad incident can pretty much ruined their reputation, and because they're not a chain bike shop like Evans, their sales can have an bigger impact compared to says, Evans.

well from my point of view I think its a bit silly to re-brand a frame just because you want to make it feel a bit more special. most may not notice the difference but whats the point in pretending that your bike is good? why not just save up a little bit more and buy a real good bike? go on its not that hard, and when the next time you bump into someone who actually has got a bike from the brand you have labled yours you wont feel like a tit for having a faux-bike.....
bit like painting you car red and stick a farrari badge on it and turning up and a car event....? thoes who have never seen one before may be fooled but your gonna look the fool in the eyes of thoes who do know. make sense? well thats my view on this. just pick a nice colour and do it up a bit thats what i would do. or cover it in stickers!

edscoble - know what you're saying - but then the idea being introduced is that at some point it becomes ok to fiddle with someones brand -

that point shifts according to the individuals political, social and financial loyalties and becomes hugely subjective

It's like people who build kit cars and put real badges on them... a bit sad, but each to their own.

(Note- kits cars are awesome though [I want a Lancia Stratos one])

yeah, i'm gonna put austin martin logo's on mine 'cos they are fookin' lovely.
na, it's wrong to either A,put the stickers of something you want it to be., or B, to pretend it is something else.
but at the end of the day.....it's your bike.

'do what **anything **you wanna do' - Eddie & the Hot Rods

:)

"how doooo you do what you do to me"
some crappy sixties band.

Freddy and the Dreamers