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Then there are some nasty spots on both the chainstays and seatstays which have white deep chips. The same for dropouts where paint looks very fragile and brittle. Perhaps the final coat wasn't applied properly, as I can see the difference in gloss?
It can be flaky if the previous coat of primer hasn't been flatted/nibbed properly...ie there is not enough key to grab the next coat of paint...to be honest I think that sometimes the primer is a little thin...I tend to put maybe 5-6 coats ...and then some more if it's looking thin, that way if the paint receives a ding...there is almost a thickness of paint to absorb the shock...rather than it hitting metal and top coat straight away..does that make sense?
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When I painted my mini cooper...I applied 4 coats of red oxide...and 14 coats...of primer before I did the top coat...between the last 6 coats ther was another guide coat of black...so before it got the top coat there was maybe 26 layers of paint...on a bike you dont need a guide coat as there are no 'flat panels'...ie a car door where if you have a dent in the middle it's very noticeable, you paint...you fill..you paint ...you fill...you paint a 'see through' black coat...and it shows you the high spots/low spots...you rub that down....and paint some more...you add paint and filler....you add a guide coat...you flat that off...you attack it with a hair dryer....and then you give it a guide coat...and you see where your high and low spots are again...
I'm just doing a guerciotti for someone and have given that maybe 8 coats of paint...5 -6 primer coats...and 1-2 of top coat (depending on type of paint) ...and then 2 lacquer..it still needs the decals and another clearcoat.
the point is...is that with every coat of paint...you then flat/nib...so you take off 1/3 of the coat you have just applied...each coat ends up being 'x' thick...and then you make it thinner when you nib it...and make each subsequent layer smoother and thicker...as you get a tiny bit of 'orange peel'...with each coat...you rub that flat and as each layer gets thicker that how the paint thickness is made up...the final thickness of primer being 'y' thick ...a culmination of 10 layers rubbed through to 6...
just to clarify...(flat is wet flatting /nib is dry flatting)...
people don't attribute much time to the process and just how many processes there are ...that why I went apeshit the first time mario got a slagging....it was fucking rude...
you spend 2-3 days on a frame and get £80...? you paint the fucker 8 times...sand it down as many...put in filler as many...and then a top coat...and then the decals...and then the lacquer....doesn't that sound like hard work to you? not attacking you directly ...rheotirical question...;D
Whoever slagged him in the first place had no fucking idea of just what has to be done...it's a damned sight easier with frame being sandblasted..as they are usually very flat and well keyed....you add a bit of filler here and there and then primer it..without having to rub off ten layers of paint..
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...people don't attribute much time to the process and just how many processes there are ...that why I went apeshit the first time mario got a slagging....it was fucking rude...
you spend 2-3 days on a frame and get £80...? you paint the fucker 8 times...sand it down as many...put in filler as many...and then a top coat...and then the decals...and then the lacquer....doesn't that sound like hard work to you? not attacking you directly ...rheotirical question...;D.....
Great post all that wingedangel, thanks!
FTR, if you look back on that little storm in a teacup, I was one of the people, like you, who were not happy at the whinging on this thread, and I've never even met Mario or had any repainting done by him. I agree, people need to have some respect for someone's work. We've seen plenty of good jobs by him, and he's cheap... maybe too cheap.
There is definitely a problem with chipping with enamel, that I've been told is to with the European directive on hazardous substances meaning the toughness of enamels has seriously reduced. I'd be interested to know what your take is on that story.
I'm about to have something restored, a single colour probably and I'd really like to get a pretty tough finish, but I have a feeling I'm not going to like powdercoat (it's a forty year old track iron, 531SL, too nice for that I reckon). I want to keep that elegance that wet enamel gives. What's your opinion on 2Pack as regards the finesse of the finish? I gather it's pretty tough.
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I have to run out, though 2 pack is thick it's not as thick as powder coating... the deal with classic cars when they made the move from cellulose to 2pack was that the 2pack was 'too thick' and plasticy...it fractured rather than chipped..on a panel that is dented the paint keeps it's form and can then be peeled like plastic...celluose followed the form and would indent with the metal rather than keep it's shape.
since the application of everythign is now water borne...the paint has become really thin...the ability for water to carry paint compared to thinners means that each coat is thinner and more fragile, and doesn't mix as well once it has been atomised from the gun to 'reliquid' once on the metal, if you wanted to be true to the frame then paint it...if it's for the track it won't get the knocks it will receive in normal service...if it's goignt to get used...then powder coat is bullet proof...
though look into maybe doing the primer coats and then giving it to mario,..he cannot afford to spend that much time appying shit loads of primer to each job...not at the rate people expect him knock them out...
it's all the faffing before you get to the top coat that makes the top coat strong, on a bike frame any more than 7-8 coats starts to look thick...and after that ...the campag stamps disappear...though on a car thats not a problem...what is needed most is flat panel work and incredible smoothness and gloss...the slightest imperfection is noticeable in a flat panel of paint 3ft square...on a bike...you have very small areas that catch the light thus diplaying the gloss or form, thus the lugs and other parts that have sharp edge become noticeably bulbous (and lose definition) with too much paint (just the way they do when you powder coat).
So, to try and cut a long story short, have a look at what steve can offer...as some of the stuff he is now getting is specicically for bikes...thus the medium is far finer (standard powder coat is for al sorts of shit and not shit with lugs) though if you don't like that ..
then maybe get argos or bob J to do the paint, though thats the difference between getting a couple of coats of primer(maybe high build), some nibbing and filling, and then a top coat and lacquer....for under £100...cheap cheerful and doesn't wear that well...or...
getting 6 coats and between each subsequent coat some nibbing, filling, going that extra mile with everything...and a top coat lacquer and a £300 bill...and not having it chip when you even ding a misplaced screwdriver on it. -
duplicate, though whilst I eat yoghurt...
I may as well add that the 'paint' is obviously pigment mixed with a carrier ...the differences between 2 pack and cellulose were that cellulose didn't have a shelf life...as long as you had pigment you could add thinners and it would become liquid...with two pack you have hardener that locks it. regardless of the application, the 2pack is pigment locked in varnish...and not simply pigment transfered to the frame...it's obviously more complicated than that though that explains why two pack looks plasticy when compared to cellulose..the cellulose would 'sink' as the thinners evaporated...the quicker it took to dry the better as a better gloss was achieved with speed (ie the quicker the propellant evaporated the better the gloss...)...with two pack its different as you can force it to a better finish by cooking it...I did a huge re edit the other day and it's disapeared...meh!!I learned to spray cellulose which meant you applied a lot of coats...as 50% of the mix was thinners you only had half the amount of pigment suspended...and the prep time was longer as you had to apply more coats/more flatting/more prep equals more time..
the main difference with 2 pack being phased out is that it had isocyanites in it...ie cyanide...so just catching a whiff can really fuck you up..ie..2 minutes...(ie you cannot actually breathe it...it's too toxic) where as cellulose was far more healthy (if red lungs is considered healthy)...you could spray without a complex mask (just one that grabbed the pigment cellulose fumes are bad, though you can spray them all day with out choking.
though...you can get single pack acrylic and two pack...single pack acrylic doesn't need a hardener and is harder to paint (it's thin, and runs easily) 2 pack is gloopy and sticks well...
water borne is to get rid of the 2 pack...
and you have a whole new kettle of fish...
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I've not read the entire thread but it's worth a visit to Mario just to see his workshop.
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You'd like my shed if you are easily impressed (I've got some candy too).
Mario's cool. He does custom jobs (which usually means, that sometimes done better and sometimes not really), charges very little and he a sole-trader/human, who can rectify his mistakes when you have a chat with him.
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Yeah, chips very easily. When I picked it up there was sand from the blasting stuck to the paint. Had to wander around for hour & half whilst he touched it up. But £40....
If you don't like him there's a place around hungerford that does it for 40. Andcshotblasting.co.uk
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http://www.aandcshotblasting.co.uk perhaps?
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Wingedangel thanks for lots of info^^^. I think I get most of what you're driving at.
The bottom line: You gets what you pays for.
Good posts WA
Thats cool It's nice to be able to let people know more of the processes that make a nice bike, we tend to believe that everything is sort of easy, when in fact a glossy paint jobs takes lots of man hours. The most important part of any job is being able to dry the paint well, and the difference between water borne and cellulose and 2k are that the last two dry a lot lot easier (as one is evaporating quicker than water, and the other is setting due to its chemical make up), where as Waterborne paints dry slower.
If anyone wants a lesson on how to refinish with rattle cans, I can offer a few tips...people tend to think that rattle can paint jobs are terrible...however thats usually just a lack of preparation and an inability to spray at all.
As long as the tin of paint can form a cone of atomised paint, ie it has enough propellant, the paint isn't too thick or thin (they are premixed so thats not usually an issue) and the area to be painted is prepared properly, you can achieve a very good result with cans, especially on something as skinny as a bike frame (what usually causes issue with car paints and cars is that the fan of paint that is being applied is simply to weak and weedy to cover a panel well enough, you get blow out...which means that as you follow the 'wet edge' (which is the glossy edge of the re-atomised paint)...you have an area of over spray rather than wet paint...it's unperceiveable when you are actually spraying as it looks fine..(cause everything is glossy) it's only when the panel is drying that the problem becomes obvious .....) so on something as small in surface area as a bike frame the problem generally doesn't arise, the usual places where you would get trouble is around the lugs, the underneath of the down tube, top tube, under the fork crown and around the bottom bracket. The paint goes on and you get areas that haven't been painted properly ...they have got a dusty, blotchy coat that was the wet edge of another tubes/areas worth of paint. rather than being properly coated they look painted but are not. so you usually paint these areas first or at least make sure they are not last (you then transfer over spray onto you nice glossy main tubes)
The other common problem is the paint, you need good quality car paint from a refinishers to do your top coat and lacquer, you can get it form halfords at £7 a tin though if you really want to match someting to a specific colour then it's better to get it mixed. (if you aren't colour matching then halfords/generic cans are fine, you can get a reasonable coverage with 300ml tin of paint....that may stretch to two top coats...though it may not..with primer it's not so specitic as you are rubbing between coats, you don't wasnt to run out halfway round the frame )
The areas being painted need to be rubbed down to the point that they are flat, and when I say flat I mean flat ie ready to paint ...no areas that are blotchy and no areas where surface metal shines through (even on the edges of the lugs, if that happens you just keep going with the primer until it's well covered and totally smooth everywhere) you need to keep everything scrupoulously clean and away from everything else you used to keep you bike shiny...ie away from plastic polishes (silicon based) paint cleaners (oil based) the list goes on...
and once these are clean and dirt free, you can paint.
The trick being you get a glossy coat on without it being too much to run, the other
trick is that you don't have patches of over spray (which are obvious for being non glossy). The happy medium...insert applicable doris stokes or derek acorah joke here...I'll put up some more later.
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people tend to think that rattle can paint jobs are terrible...however thats usually just a lack of preparation and an inability to spray at all.
That's Max' rattlecan job in a nutshell. :)
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Wingedangel- i dont think its the finish of rattlecans thats really the problem, improving the durability would be more useful as its always gonna chip easy.
read what I said about the base coats...or don't...rattle cans are fine...no...they are not as hard as 2 pack or powder coating...though if you arent' hanging your chain around the frame it'll be fine...you need plenty of primer to help stop chips..
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This makes me think: never ever ever ask a sprayer to get on with it quickly, or do it by such and such a day. Take your time mate!
Mario has had one of my frames for 5 months...;D...I'm not in a rush so why should he...?
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Actually, if you lot had to paint over the amazing and delicious paint job my Panasonic used to rock, what color would you go for?
I'm still very up for kawasaki green.
Suggestions, please?(don't bother with blue, I hate it)
Wingedangel
Skülly
hanged_up
mr_lunch
conservative_values
EEI
singlefozzi
melon
Oliver Schick
nuknow
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About
Mario Vaz resprays
Posted by
@Roberto
That's why I'm considering going for PC on my next frame, the Favorit, it will be an everyday bike.
Just an enamel paint job would mean money splashed.