Wheelbuilding / Wheel Building / Wheel build help

I'm looking for some assistance to help understand lacing patterns wrt spoke tension.

I am planning a new rear wheel build using an unused rim and hub I have. I have been searching for ways to try and obtain a more equal spoke tension on the drive and non-drive side.

Some people seem to advocate building with thinner spokes on the NDS eg DT Swiss Competition (2.0/1.8/2.0 mm) on the DS and DT Swiss Competition Race (2.0/1.6/2.0 mm) on the NDS. This I can understand, I think.

Others suggest a 2-cross pattern on the DS and 3-cross on the NDS, which is similar to some commercial wheels. This however I do not understand. Others seem to be doing something similar but the opposite way round. Clearly one way cannot be correct.

Would someone be able to either explain this to me, or point me in the direction of some information to explain this?

Thanks

Some people seem to advocate building with thinner spokes on the NDS

That makes no difference to the tension balance, it just reduces stiffness slightly on the side which has plenty in exchange for a small weight loss.

Having fewer crossings (limit = 0 i.e. radial) improves the spoke bracing angle. The problem with radial on the drive side is that it has to move a lot before the spoke tension balances the drive torque. If the hub shell has loads of torsional stiffness, that's less of a problem as the NDS spokes take up the slack.

Radial on the NDS used to be popular with weight weenies, as it shortens the spokes which didn't have to do much torque reaction on rim braked wheels based on old fashioned hubs with skinny barrels. Tension balance was made slightly worse, but not to an intolerable degree.

Thanks.

Bar weight loss (which would be minimal and doesn't bother me) the differential spokes offers no benefit then?

Having fewer crossings (limit = 0 i.e. radial) improves the spoke bracing angle.

Does this mean it makes the DS bracing angle closer to the NDS angle and therefore a better tension balance or do I misunderstand this?

Sorry for the many questions.

Does this mean it makes the DS bracing angle closer to the NDS angle and therefore a better tension balance or do I misunderstand this?

Yes, if you have fewer crossing on the DS than the NDS of a dished wheel, the tension balance is marginally improved. It's a pretty small change though, and not really worth the trouble. If your wheel is running so close to its limits that tension balance is a big problem, you should be looking to redesign completely rather than messing about at the margins.

Thanks. I just found a calculator that gives the bracing angle, http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/, I see what you mean about marginal changes.

The wheel will be far from operating at its limits with 32 spokes and a rugged rim and reliable hub. All my other builds have either been 3X or 2X 32 or 28 spoke respectively. I just fancied learning some more, which I have, and building something a little different. The little different is however slightly limited by the fact I have both a 32 hole hub and rim.

The distributor for Ryde is meant to be receiving a consignnent of Ryde Pulse Comp CSS soon.
If you're in SE London ask Joel at Blue Door Bicycles to find out.
I've been waiting a while for some but haven't checked in the past week whether they have arrived or not.

Early suspension wheel with tyre brake.

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It looks like somthing Rob English could have made.

Chickens told me they would not be getting the ccs rim. I will be phoning them on monday Incidently dlnt try putting a tubless tyre on thd ryde rim you might not get it off again.

Thoughts on lacing Hope Mono RS rear with radial spokes on NDS, please.

That would mean I can use spokes that I already have...
28h, 2X DS
NDS spokes might also be thinner, but I don't remember now.

If it's above 24 hole count Hope do not recommend it. The forces on the hub flange from radial lacing can lead to failure.
I never lace the rear hubs radially on the NDS myself. The front hubs I will lace radially but only those 24 hole and below as Hope have beefed up the hub flange so that it can take radial. Other wheelbuilders don't do this at all even in those low spoke counts with a specially reinforced hub. I don't believe, however, the rear is similarly reinforced.
Even if the hub flange doesn't crack, radial lacing in these hubs can lead to distortion of the hub causing bearing play.

I go by the above line also but many do it without issue. The NDS is under lower tension so cracking is actually a very low risk. If the tensions on the NDS are very even then distortion should not be an issue.

Hope have beefed up the hub flange to take radial lacing, but forgot to mention, it pulls the bearing bore apart. After that, bearing retaining is your only hope.
I wouldn't try it on the rear either.

My thoughts were that rear NDS bears so little tension and torsion that the precautions regarding radial lacing in front wheels are pretty much irrelevant. DS will still be crossed.

Thanks for the replies. New question:
Still regarding Hope hubs, but this time in the axle department.

Does somebody produce a 9mm OD tube with internal m6 threads to use in lieu of front 9mm thru QR? @mdcc_tester ?

I want it to match a bolt-in (or trials) rear.

That's true.whats the tension on the non drive side though? Half of the drive side? So say 50/60kgf.
The front bearing bore distorts way before your reach the adequate tension of 95-100kgf for the front wheel.
Anyway good luck with it. Can you let us know if it developed a play? It would good to know

Hope Mono RS hubs, 24 hole and below, I have built radially and not experienced bearing play.
I have also already said that I don't build the rear NDS radially because of the lack of "meat" in the hub flange. Even at lower NDS tensions the forces on CNC machined hubs radially can cause failure. I have seen this before personally.

It's for a build that I'm planning to sell, so for that reason I will probably go for the tried and tested pattern rather than experiment... Will see.

Would love to know the answer to this as well, would be great.

9mm OD tube with internal m6 threads to use in lieu of front 9mm thru QR?

Get a Shimano QR axle, Sora will do and it's often cheaper to buy the complete hub, run an M6 tap into each end. It would be possible to make something tarty in 7075T6, but for a one-off it would be ten times the price.

Ha.interesting. All front rs monos I have seen built radially or tried to build radially had a play in them, all were 20h.Just riding along seems to have the same experience. Some 32h 3 crossed ones had the same issue. Bad apples in a batch I suppose.

Regarding rear nds radial, I agree with what you said about the flange not being beefy enough to withstand the force.Even if it could withstand it , you could have had bearing play as a bonus ;-)

Yeah, since I read what you (and others) have said about these issues I've been considering dispensing with radial entirely as, even though I've had no problems so far, it only takes one hub from a batch with issues to fuck up a build. And then rebuilding tangentially is a no go.
But I know that in these instances Hope are really good with warranty and will just replace the hub.

Thank you, just what I wanted to hear.

Or should I just get normal QR hub and this one instead: https://www.cnc-bike.de/product_info.php?cPath=543&products_id=9268 ?

I need to replace the rear wheel on my Pashley Pronto delivery bike.

I will be using a Shimano Nexus 8 speed hub with roller brakes and I am after a rim with the following specs:

36 holes - Silver - Robust - Eyeleted - Reasonably priced - Weight doesn't really matter

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Vince