Wheelbuilding / Wheel Building / Wheel build help

cheapest at leisurelakebikes by the way indra, i'd go 32h to be honest, with wider and heavier (this is a massive generalisation, but heavier would indicate more material, indicating more strength) rims you can go with lower spoke counts, but this is you we're talking about...

So i'd go 3x with dt swiss competitions, 32h or 36h, and dt swiss competition's (cheapest at rosebikes) as you probably don't need the extra thickness at the end of the alpine iii's in my opinion, if they're just for road riding

you probably don't need the extra thickness at the end of the alpine iii's in my opinion, if they're just for road riding

You probably don't need it, but the price premium is so tiny that only the most impecunious need worry about it, and the weight penalty is irrelevant to all but the most obsessive weight weenie, who would be using 20-24 CX-Rays anyway.

Cheers but I can get trade at the lbs and they're nice guys so I'm going there.

I've already got the front hub in 36h, only paid £30 for it so I'm going with that for the whole wheelset.

The extra thickness is only a bonus though as this isn't a WW build at all.

fair enough, sounds like you've got a plan, and £30 is a bargain i paid £80 for my rear and thought that was a deal, they're good hubs too, just remember the rear gives a 44mm chainline, not standard 42mm

Tester's 'impecunious'' made me chuckle.

Aren't Alpine 3 a touring spoke?

DT Alpine III is the same as a DT Competition right up to the point where they add a tiny but significant bit of metal exactly where it matters most. It's less than 1g per spoke, and about 10p per spoke extra, but the spoke is 30% stronger at the point where the vast majority of spoke failures occur. It's also nice that the slightly larger diameter matches the spoke holes better, reducing the pressure on the flange and the freedom of movement which can allow fretting at this point. I just can't think of any circumstance where I'd use DT Comps knowing all that about the Alpine III.

That's really interesting. Thanks.

On all my builds I've used the DT Comps. I'm planning another at the moment. I did not the above info about the DT Alpine spokes. Rather than a full wheel of Alpines would it make sense to use Alpines on the rear drive side and Comps on the non-drive side?

Well, if you absolutely must save a couple of quid, drive side rear is where you'll get the most benefit, but there is no benefit from using weaker spokes elsewhere.

Note that all comments apply to Alpine III; there is an Alpine single butted spoke (2.3mm at the bend, 2.0mm for the rest of the spoke), which might be useful for some builds but if you really need the extra stiffness of a full 2.0mm spoke, it's better to use a greater number of thinner spokes if you can.

These hubs - yay or nay? they have small bearings but four of them which is apparently quite a good idea

other option is these which have larger bearings but only two and are heavier

I'd take 2 big bearings over 4 little ones; it's really hard to get the load spread evenly over two adjacent cartridge bearings. It's only ½oz.

688 bearings max static load is 570N
6900 bearings max static load is 1250N

Even if the twinned 688s were perfectly matched and aligned, they would still be weaker than a single 6900. Also, since the 688 is only 8mm ID, it needs a skinny axle, compared with the 10mm ID 6900.

Cheers tester, think I've finally found some hubs that I like, paired with some pacentis will do nicely. Just wanted to ask as I did look at one of those sheets but wondered whether it was one of those "this is so ridiculously overbuilt for a bike part" moments, will save money come bearing change time too!

On all my builds I've used the DT Comps. I'm planning another at the moment. I did not the above info about the DT Alpine spokes. Rather than a full wheel of Alpines would it make sense to use Alpines on the rear drive side and Comps on the non-drive side?

I've wanted to try this meself, so far I have experimented using DT Comp double-butted on the non-drive-side and DT Champion straight spokes on drive-side, which really was a waste of time, but do still want to try DT Alpine III or Sapim Force triple-butted spokes on drive-side and double-butted Comp or Race spokes on the non-drive-side.

Well, if you absolutely must save a couple of quid, drive side rear is where you'll get the most benefit, but there is no benefit from using weaker spokes elsewhere..

Finding Alpine III (or Sapim Force 2.18 - 1.8 - 2mm) spokes in 700cc lengths at decent price can be a total bitch though, especially in black.

The other way to stop movement, and subsequent weakening of the spoke at the hub is to use spoke washers, which I've been trying out.

They get sandwiched between the oversized 2.6mm spoke holes in most modern hubs (which should really be 2.3mm max) and the spoke j-bend like this -

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_Y-dCvtxyUqg/S3iyPqrj0BI/AAAAAAAADQI/0Ng9VXnwokE/s800/DSC_0365.JPG

Also, don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, but cheap spokes is to be had in any quantity you want from Germany.

My go to sites are -
Sapim Race in black for 0.50€ a spoke
ActionSports
Bike24
HiBike

:D

I'm having trouble working out spoke count on a reasonably fast wheelset I'm planning for.

It'll be with Hope disc hubs, H+Son Archetype rims, and either the rear wheel laced with Sapim Race (possible Force drive side), front with Race for disc-side and Sapim D-Light front drive-side, or Sapim CX-Ray front and rear.

I'm a heavy bloke and had factored in a 32h rear rim, but can I get away with a 28h rim for the front, taking in to consideration it's running a disc brake?

Better to run the normal spokes for a 28h rim, or stick to CX-Ray spokes and use a 32h instead...?

Experienced criticism encouraged!

I like DT super comps for disk wheels.

32 3x rear.
28 2x front.

IMHO etc.

I've used Super Comps in the past, and do not have fond memories, now that was on flexy rims and I've built a fair few wheelsets more since then, but would only use them again for front non-disc-side wheel (similar to the Sapim D-Light I may use) again I think, I am a tad heavy (107kg) for them and nowhere near as good a wheel builder to do them justice.

I've had issues with revolutions. Never had a problem with super-comps. Have them on several bikes now. From a weight weenie perspective they are a decent balance of lightness, and stiffness. Especially for a disc braked wheel. Plus if youre inclined to use alu nips. The narrower threaded end means theres a little more material in the nip. Which is nice.

Just my personal preference.

Yeah, don't think I'd like to build with DT Revolution or Sapim Laser spokes any time soon!

How much do you weigh Smallfurry?

Trying to work out if worth another try.

The other way to stop movement, and subsequent weakening of the spoke at the hub is to use spoke washers, which I've been trying out.

I tried these with an On-One double fixed hub but couldn't seem to get the J-bend to sit close enough to the hub flange with the washers on. Those in the image above look perfect.

Any ideas what I could have done wrong or not done?

When the spokes are properly tensioned the thin brass washers get pulled into the flange spoke holes and getting shaped by the tension like a tight seal around the back of the spoke head.

Ends up looking very neat.

I agree, when I've seen it done it looks good. So I just fit these and even if the spoke looks slightly off at the, flange just tighten up. Is that correct? If so I'll try again on the next build, as all my hubs seem to have spoke holes with far greater diameter than necessary.

Yeah, don't think I'd like to build with DT Revolution or Sapim Laser spokes any time soon!

How much do you weigh Smallfurry?

Trying to work out if worth another try.

85kg.

Used super comps disc side, revolutions DS on the weight weenie 29er.
Used super comps on the fatbike too.

32 3x on both.

^ Hmmm, I'm 25% heavier than you at 107kg, but worth trying super-comp or d-light spokes again, they should at least work out for the front DS.
Or I blow it all and go for CX-Ray's! :D

I agree, when I've seen it done it looks good. So I just fit these and even if the spoke looks slightly off at the, flange just tighten up. Is that correct? If so I'll try again on the next build, as all my hubs seem to have spoke holes with far greater diameter than necessary.

Yeah that's it, just stick 'em on before lacing and they'll tighten up as you tension the wheel.
Pretty much all modern hubs seem to have spoke holes too big, but a spoke with a 2.3mm diameter at the bend, or a washer, solves that.
From what I've read, and what I'm trying out at the mo, it works good at stopping any movement, but whether that actually measurably prolongs spoke life, I don't know.
Guess time will tell, but no harm being cautious!

^ cheers.