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Tim, I find the undercurrent of blaming LeMond for his own abuse fairly troubling here. In terms of his competitive history, LeMond of course is anything but a 'loser'. What has come out, of course, is that he was sexually abused when he was a child, which is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone. This does not have any bearing on his criticism of the kind of doping, in particular, that started in the early Nineties.
It must have been said already in this thread but I couldn't find it--because those were different times, and because with EPO doping leapt to a new plane. The methods that people used earlier were effective but not anywhere near as effective as EPO doping or other blood doping methods. (And Andy will be able to put that much better, as he knows much more about it.)
Not all of them, of course--what happens to you as a child is largely before the 'age of responsibility'. However, I think he has accepted responsibility for the troubles in his own nuclear family, which were caused by his past history, and has worked hard on repairing the damage.
Be careful trying to reduce these cases, as Armstrong habitually does, to personal and procedural issues--e.g., attacking people and insisting that the only thing that could possibly be of any relevance are legal processes, not the 'meat' of what is being said, from which he tries to distract. I accept, of course, that things need to be proven, and I can't work out what and how much has been proven as I don't know what to trust, but the allegations seem to me to be pretty consistent and getting added to over time.
(For the record, as I've said before, in the context of elite sport, which I don't rate very highly, I think doping isn't particularly shameful as such, but a fairly logical consequence of the extremes of elite sport--the secrecy and lack of truthfulness is of course a different matter.)
re my post about moral high horses :p
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re my post about moral high horses :p
I'm not on a moral high horse, Tim. Lance Armstrong is, however.
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hippy never did drugs, you will never find any evidence of him doing drugs (because he ate it)
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yet more proof of nothing. thanks for linking us to that :D
Thats just it though. The mainstream media, that are wholly owned and controlled can cry 'conspiracy' to anything...it doesn't then matter what evidence stands, be it incredibly damning, the seed of doubt has been planted. So...regardless of whatever facts are then brought to light, no matter how serious or incendiary, how damaging or unbelieveable to the mainstream followers of said press, they can always call them into doubt. It doesn't matter one jot if the facts are there, foul play is called.
Back to the Op...is Armstrong good? yes...is he a Great...? No. The stink around him being an arrogant, egotistical wanker, regardless of what he has won..detracts from that. He's a liar and a bully to boot, and if people can't see that in him ...they have never been bullied.
and can we also leave out cancer? Lots of people beat cancer, My mother and father for two...if he had never cycled had cancer then won the tour...ok..whoopee...though after you have cancer...you do what you did before...He's a professional cyclist...go figure.Back to Lance...Does he compare to the bonkersness of Coppi...?
The character of Magni? Cycling with a broken collarbone and femur? through snow? with an inner tube tied to the bars as an extra hand...which after a while on his descent, wasn't strong enough, so whilst skidding braking one handed...he falls off and breaks his hip...what did he do...continue...whilst the rest of the peleton got off and had hot chocolate cause they were getting hypothermia...he carried on...and came second?(or third) wtf?
Merckx...the cannibal...winning abso-fucking-lutely everything...twice...three times? four? five?
Daddy Wayne had it right earlier.
He's ok...though he's a cunt...please don't attach some mythical sainthood to him. He's rich white guy that earned ridiculous amounts of sponsorship from globalized Corporations that exploit developing nations to make bullshit consumer goods.
If those that are sainting him, are...? I'd hate to see the rest of your saints?
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He's hardly Eros Poli, eh? Now that was an ascent of Ventoux worth remembering. ;)
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Eros is really quite funny too...
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Fiorenzo Magni was the king of HTFU
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I am wearing black socks for tennis tonight.
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@ wingedangel. dude where to start?
why on earth would mainstream media call conspiracy on those who accuse armstrong of doping? (if that's what you were implying, sorry i found that opening paragraph a bit difficult to follow)
if lance was a shelf stacker then maybe it wouldn't have been sucha big deal but he is an elite sportman and returning from a debilitating life threatening disease has to have an affect on performance. besides you've got to be pretty heartless not to see even a tiny bit of a life affirming story in the whole returns to win tour episode.
no one said any of those riders you mentioned were anything other than heroic whether compared to lance or not. I don't think anyone on here has attached any special sainthood on LA at all. some people said they thought he was a great rider and then a whole bunch of people said they didn't like him. the haters seem to have a lot more energy for the fight on here. And i'm glad lance is making lots of money because there is lots of money in cycling and at least it's going to the rider, almost makes your socialist heart weep with pride that the guy mainly responsible for doing the hard work is getting rewarded.
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because there is lots of money in cycling
Proabbly still enough. But nevertheIess I wish to disagree. From a German perspective (where the sport is finished) Armstrong's reign was the slow and painful death of professional cycling. T-Mobile, Gerolsteiner, Milram, none. Blanket coverage of all the stages on the main channels ARD and ZDF comparable to BBC coverage of Wimbledon and The Open rolled into one for three weeks. Last year I saw half an hour at the final of the Ventoux without an ad break. If you would try to do something like LMNH or Rapha's cafe "Giro" coverage people would laugh at you. The Tour used to be an enjoyable event shared by quite a few. Sadly no more.
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He's hardly Eros Poli, eh? Now that was an ascent of Ventoux worth remembering. ;)
I was there! I have photos! Though sadly did not get any when, a while later, Neil Stephens and (I think) Raul Alcala had a fist fight. It was 40 degrees on the Ventoux and they had the energy to trade blows. Don't tell me the drugs don't work.
@ wingedangel. dude where to start?
if lance was a shelf stacker then maybe it wouldn't have been sucha big deal but he is an elite sportman and returning from a debilitating life threatening disease has to have an affect on performance. besides you've got to be pretty heartless not to see even a tiny bit of a life affirming story in the whole returns to win tour episode.
Well, Clint, you could start by acknowledging LeMond's comeback from a near-fatal shooting? Or is recovering from a shot-gun blast and returning to win the tour not life-affirming enough for you? :)
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Re ^, this makes an interesting read if you are a bit bored at work on a friday...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/1998/tourdefrance/tourdefrancearchive/tour2.html
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............. besides you've got to be pretty heartless not to see even a tiny bit of a life affirming story in the whole returns to win tour episode.
Heartless?
No...I just find more hope and joy and all that other bullshit...from other riders that don't claim to be saints...
thats what really fucks me over to be honest...Lance tries to make out he's an angel.. ultraclean...teeth whiter than white....not a bully...just 'competetive'...when it's a load of shit...
He's a gobshite...if he was a nice guy...or at least honest...I could get it...Some sob story about him having cancer...
No...it's a none story...It takes away everything from every one else that ever survived some terrible ordeal and lived to carry on...
What is it you'd like...? tough breaks...?
Coppi's brother died three weeks before the tour...
Lemond got shot in the chest with a 12 bore?
Armstrong got cancer...was he able to afford the worlds best medical care? did they operate with a blunt spoon by the side of the road? no..
A million other stories like this surround the history of cycling....
So what...he got back up and carried on riding....thats what 'people' (moreover cyclists) do...even with a fractured hip and broken collarbone....
To be honest thats as far as my 'grudge' goes....
He doesn't get the magic star ...as he's a wanker...and claims to be a 'nice guy'...using a position of great influence and wealth to maintain that aura....simple really.
It's that sort of hypocrisy I can't stomach....
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why on earth would mainstream media call conspiracy on those who accuse armstrong of doping? (if that's what you were implying, sorry i found that opening paragraph a bit difficult to follow)
Deep breath......aaannnnddddd........
If you have to ask why the mainstream press would kick up a stink if there 'golden poster boy'..
was found out to be a lying cheating shit....
then you really shouldn't be having this argument...
Fucking hell....that *is what the media do....*they engineer situations...for the betterment of corporate gain?
Without trying to sound unnecessarily harsh...
if you lived on a desert island of pearl fishers...like the one that Henri found himself on...and have a bamboo bike with coconut wheels....and watch the giro on satellite...I apologise...obviously there isn't a 'problem' like there would be anywhere else...and your innocence regarding the wholesale corruption of the media would be understandable...
however...
though if you live in europe...or the 'west'...it's pretty obvious the press are very, very wrong...almost 95% of the worlds press are owned by the same (I'm pretty sure 5 or 6 people...or less...murdoch has most of the 'free west' ie america, most of europe, most of australasia....you get the picture...
pick up a copy of No logo..or stupid white men....or something equally brutal regarding the media, it's poster boys...George Bush lost the first election for his presidency to the tune of something like 500,000 votes...Though Fox...ran the story...and that....was that.
and the hundreds of millions of dollars that are 'generated'....
This is where the demarkation between heroes of sport...and the heroes of commerce start to become blurred...
Everything, Everyone....etcetera...around Lance...stand to lose incredible amounts of money, respect, money, kudos, money, whatever, money...if he is found to be a phoney..
the point is,..he is a phoney...that is why this media circus, his lawyers, his sponsors, everyone..
are backing him...
Because they know he isn't that clean....
He wouldn't need the lawyers if he wasn't...
He could just say...ok...
you want proof..?
I'll test every month for 12 months...
whatver you want...
that would be it, the rumours would stop.
end of.
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....And i'm glad lance is making lots of money because there is lots of money in cycling and at least it's going to the rider, almost makes your socialist heart weep with pride that the guy mainly responsible for doing the hard work is getting rewarded.
Oh...and that...sentence...and socialism...doesn't compute...it's like talking about Imelda Marcos, Shoes, and restraint...they just don't go together...
Lance being...a little rich..fine...Lance...having a 'foundation'...fine...Lance...doing 'charidee'...fine...saying he's clean...utter shite.
And as someone that claims to understands socialism...how can you justify Lance probably having upwards of 100 million in the bank? the man is a corporate sponsorship whore of the first degree...he may as well have 'I love satan and nike' tattooed on his forehead...
You have any Idea how much money that is? Just how much do you need after say? 10 million? You have any idea what 'crimes against humanity' Nike have behind them?
I'd stop if I were you...It's like trying to defend Bono...which is another pointless occupation.
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WA, I do agree with a lot of what you say on Armstrong, but FYI clintsmoker is a very sound guy in person. There's a point of disagreement here; why not concentrate on that rather than get personal? I'm sure that if something comes out to convince him, he'll be good enough to take that on board, just as the rest of us should if we found we had been wrong on it.
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Oh...and that...sentence...and socialism...doesn't compute...it's like talking about Imelda Marcos, Shoes, and restraint...they just don't go together...
Lance being...a little rich..fine...Lance...having a 'foundation'...fine...Lance...doing 'charidee'...fine...saying he's clean...utter shite.
And as someone that claims to understands socialism...how can you justify Lance probably having upwards of 100 million in the bank? the man is a corporate sponsorship whore of the first degree...he may as well have 'I love satan and nike' tattooed on his forehead...
You have any Idea how much money that is? Just how much do you need after say? 10 million? You have any idea what 'crimes against humanity' Nike have behind them?
I'd stop if I were you...It's like trying to defend Bono...which is another pointless occupation.
+1
When Tiger Woods was caught out and the scandal started breaking, NONE of the US news corps carried images of him with the reports. They had to report it, but were clearly minimising the exposure deliberately.
Clint, if you are so naive to believe that these sportspeople-who literally generate billions for sponsors (Tiger is officially the first sportsperson to earn over $1 billion) don't have any way of influencing the media then you are totally deluded. You just need to look at Murdoch's influence with Sky and all his newspaper titles and the influence it has had in the run up to the election.
Armstrong -sure he has natural ability but he has clearly doped in his career and is known for bullying and intimidating both other riders and journalists to get his way. The argument that 'everyone does it' doesn't hold water-even if it were true all riders dope, the amount of money and logistics spent to ensure products used for doping can be arranged is substantial, not to mention the medical support required, mean that is not a level playing field, so in this case all he has really done over his career is prove he is the best at doping.
I find it sickening the way he uses cancer patients as a shield to hide behind-he has clearly tried to create a situation where if you attack Lance you are somehow proCancer, and whatever good he has done for patients seems coincidental to his own PR machine. That is just cycnical media manipulation and a jesus complex.
You've all ready ridiculed LeMond for being abused when he was kid and infer it is a kind of weakness for hi to now be talking about it-he was a real champion and doesn't flinch from the truth. Armstrong has destroyed people's careers to ensure secrecy and his own success and seems unable to come to terms with his own limitations as a cyclist. I just find it really sad for him that everything he has achieved seems to be ultimately a huge deception-the clock is ticking down to when he is going to be exposed and will have to answer to all the people he's let down and fucked over, and Landis, prick that he is, is at least man enough to do that.
Facepalm for Clint and Lance from a repentant junkie celeb:
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WA, I do agree with a lot of what you say on Armstrong, but FYI clintsmoker is a very sound guy in person. There's a point of disagreement here; why not concentrate on that rather than get personal? I'm sure that if something comes out to convince him, he'll be good enough to take that on board, just as the rest of us should if we found we had been wrong on it.
Thats very well said...and I apologiseif I have sounded really harsh...
though I had to stress the point regarding the media...they are above everyone ...even Lance ...
So incredibly corrupt that literally anything that comes via the 'associated' press...is usually in cahoots with some really evil people...
I thought that was sort of common knowledge...thats why I made the comment about living on an island...
as that would account for someone being less sceptical about the press...
Clint..I have reworded the posts above to be les offensive...
Sorry for sounding off like a cockroach!!!
peace and best wishes!
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Cockroachist. :)
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And i'm glad lance is making lots of money because there is lots of money in cycling and at least it's going to the rider, almost makes your socialist heart weep with pride that the guy mainly responsible for doing the hard work is getting rewarded.
Its a shame its not more fairly distributed amongst the other riders. Sure Lance wins races but he's nothing without his team. Only Armstrong and Contador are really making decent money. God knows what the Astana wage bill was last year.
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Cockroachist. :)
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About
Lance Armstrong... greatest doper there was or ever will be
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@the-smiling-buddha
and if they don't everyone on here will just say 'yeah but it's a conspiracy. nike paid the feds off and lance is sleeping with obama and it would be against the interests of market capitalism' that's if they have the time and they're not too busy storming negotiations between BA and Unite! (that's a joke by the way so no need to post about not being commies)