Lance Armstrong... greatest doper there was or ever will be

Don't.

He was the instigator, just look at the USADA charge sheet. Others may have doped, like him, but he was the driving force behind a widespread conspiracy to facilitate team wide doping across a ten year period. That's why his sentence was harsher.

Ok, so life ban and stripped of 7 TdF titles v 6 month ban, palmares untouched.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Armstrong doesn't deserve it. but there are plenty of others that deserve more than they have got, and plenty more that will get away scot-free.

It seems to run along the lines of cheat and be a cunt and we'll crucify you, cheat and be pretty sound and have a funny goatee and we'll look the other way.

I dunno, its a mess, we'll see which way Cookson goes.

The Garmin three all co-operated with USADA, but still had their results annulled and got a ban. Armstrong didn't co-operate, the opposite in fact as he used his political connections to try and stop US Government funding to USADA, and his transgressions were far more serious, hence the longer ban. Surely you can see that?

The WADA code explicitly allows for reducing suspensions for co-operation, hence why the Garmin three only got six months.

Yeah, come on Jimmy I think you need to up your medication if you're even considering compassion for Lance. . 7 straight TDF wins is rubbing everyone noses in it. In the end it was greed and his rampant ego that made him come back, he continued to piss on Floyd's chips when offering him some crumbs would have silenced him, a decision that looks like costing him everything. No one else was so vociferous in their denials, he shouted everyone down and even stooped to calling Emma O a prostitute with a drink problem did'nt he? He had access to an army of lawyers that even intimidated the press (Kimmage and Walsh excepted) and even his own mother thought he was an arsehole, or asshole. USADA has a tiny budget yet took on the biggest fish in the pond, Travis is still my hero and how he did'nt win sports personality of the year in 2012 is a travesty, or Travisty.

...he did'nt call Betsy fat though so swings and roundabouts....not, burn him. I'll think he's finally got what he deserves when he's living in a trailerpark in Texas somewhere and still getting heckled by the neighbours.

Yes you are both right of course. I will say it took a very long time for the Garmin three to co-operate however. Just not very sympathetic to any doper, whether they co-operated or not. I suppose it made sense to get to Lance.

But how about this stage dedicated to Indurain? Do you think they are trolling Lance with that?

meh, if Ryder is hiding behind the SOL going after Indurain is pointless. At least he kept quiet. And he rode cool bikes and rode in awesome kit so all win.

If they were really trying to wind up Lance they should have dedicated a stage to Lemond.

this whole thread would give 'him' a hard on. Just don't give him the respect of an opinion, ambivalence is the only thing that'll really heart him. Forget him.

Who?

^^^

Now that would be absolutely golden.

meh, if Ryder is hiding behind the SOL going after Indurain is pointless. At least he kept quiet. And he rode cool bikes and rode in awesome kit so all win.

If they were really trying to wind up Lance they should have dedicated a stage to Lemond.

The SoL is laughable really. Just tailor your doping admission to put yourself outside it, say you only tried it once, or for one season, and saw the error of your ways and you're golden. Indurain was mid pack fodder until he went to the doctor, but he's Spanish, a nice guy and had awesome kit so there'll be no witch hunt, it's the Lance lie that really needed exposing. Indurain's trangressions can be filed next to Anquetil, Simpson, Kelly, Merckx, Hinault et al.

Although the problem with that is the drugs they took weren't turbo chargers and they were all top cyclists without it. Just been reading Davud Walsh defending Kelly's doping, saying he was a proper cycling hard man, and he would have won anyway. Is that the criteria, if you have natural talent it's not so bad? EPO transformed Lance and Indurain from domestiques to dominant. But that is a little bit anecdotal of course.

BTW haz som rep for the Lemond remark

The principle of SoL is to protect the defendant, so that they are not put in a situation where they are prosecuted for an offence that is so long ago that their own recollection of it is poor, never mind their ability to gather evidence to defend themselves.

As for Indurain, he was never mid pack fodder. He won Paris-Nice twice and a stage in the Tour before the EPO era kicked in. What it did was enable him to climb with the best, which was astonishing given his racing weight was around the 80 kg mark.

He won Paris-Nice in 1989 and 1990 right? You saying those were clean? I wouldn't consider that pre-EPO era at all. Looking at his palmeres he went from two WD in the TdF, a 97th, a 47th then 17th in 89, 10th in 90 then 5 wins on the trot.

His higher positions fall in line with his Paris-Nice wins, then he started winning, by monstering it in the ITT and limiting damages in the mountains.

I thought EPO started being used in the late 80s? Puts it in line with Indurain's improved results.

The EPO era started in around 1990, but it wasn't widespread, that came in the mid-90s. The first Tour where it's impact was felt was 1991, when Indurain, Chiappucci and Bugno all got on the podium.

I've no doubt Indurain doped, but it's unknown as to what he used and when, and I doubt that'll ever come out as the appetite to tarnish a Spanish sporting hero is lacking in Spain.

Fair enough, but I would maintain that Indurain was a good responder, like Lance, and drugs made him what he was.

The EPO era started in around 1990, but it wasn't widespread, that came in the mid-90s. The first Tour where it's impact was felt was 1991, when Indurain, Chiappucci and Bugno all got on the podium.

I've no doubt Indurain doped, but it's unknown as to what he used and when, and I doubt that'll ever come out as the appetite to tarnish a Spanish sporting hero is lacking in Spain.

Not unknown, Thomas Davy testified at the Festina trial that the Banesto team was medically prepared.

Yes, I know, Bill. What I meant was, when exactly did his EPO usage start? He worked with Conconi in 1992 and after, but when did that relationship start?

Indurain was a cheat too?

Never really thought about it but this makes me sadder than all the rest as he did seem like a really nice chap. When I first got into cyclign I saw a lot of him and he always impressed me and suggested that even if you had something approaching a monobrow you coudl suceed.

Did anyone not cheat? When was the last time (pre-EPO) anyone rode clear and won regularly?

Wasn't everyone on pot Belge before that anywway?

Prior to Evans and/or Wiggins, I think it's generally accepted that LeMond was the last clean Tour winner in 1990.

Lemond is generally acknowledged as a clean rider, probably seen as the one true clean winner of Grand Tours. Pre EPO the drugs weren't as performance-enhancing of course, but pretty much name a winner and there will be a drug anecdote somewhere. Amphetamine was the drug of choice primarily, morphine in the legs at night to numb the pain, various cocktails of substances offered by the soigneurs, who were valued for their 'medicines' although a good proportion was hokum.

But it was possible to ride and win clean, and the riders winning were still the most talented. EPO is the game-changer, so good responders like Armstrong and Indurain could dope heavily and beat much better riders, even if those riders were using EPO themselves.

Does clean for Lemond = bread and water ?

or does it = cortisone, blood transfusions etc, but not EPO ?

By all accounts, he was a bread and water man. Armstrong offered money to ex-teammates of his to say he'd taken EPO but they declined.

Anecdotally, the 80s seem to have been relatively light on doping with just cortisone and amphetamines being used.

That's helpful thanks. I'd forgotten about Greg^

I thought everyone believed that Sastre was clean?

His nickname in the Spanish peleton was "Don Limpio" which translates as "Mr Clean", and he has never been directly implicated in cycling's many doping scandals.

I'd love to believe he was clean, but then I look at where he spent most of his career and the period he rode in, and think, "nah, not a chance".

Who knows for sure, and that was, and remains, cycling's credibility problem.

I'd like to hear Jamie Burrow's story of his time in Lance's team and why he chose to end his career comparitively early given his climbing talent, is it out there?