Lance Armstrong... greatest doper there was or ever will be

I think he works in product development for Planet X nowadays.

For Jimmy;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/nov/12/lance-armstrong-media-offensive-doomed?CMP=twt_gu

, then he started winning, by monstering it in the ITT and limiting damages in the mountains.
.

It's funny how often people think that - Indurain did not limit his losses in the mountains, he had virtually no losses and gifted stages to other riders. He came second to Romiger on mountain stages two days running in one tour, a bit greedy of Rominger to accept a second gift, really.

Indurain was a cheat too?
Never really thought about it but this makes me sadder than all the rest as he did seem like a really nice chap.

Who is to say he wasn't a nice man? The idea that all dopers are like Armstrong is silly. Indurain didn't throw his weight around, bully people or get angry. I recall someone saying the only time they saw him get angry was when Jesper Skibby accidentally trod on his toe.

I'd like to hear Jamie Burrow's story of his time in Lance's team and why he chose to end his career comparitively early given his climbing talent, is it out there?

This gives some insight. He had bad luck with injuries in his second season and they let him go.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=85563#.UoKQepEVQlI

For Jimmy;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/nov/12/lance-armstrong-media-offensive-doomed?CMP=twt_gu

Duly noted. Armstrong is certainly getting what he deserves. Is it enough that he is made pariah though? You feel there's a lot of people out that will walk away their legacy and bank balance intact. I guess that is what I'm driving at: not that Armstrong deserves leniency, more that there are people that deserve harsher punishments.

Hoisted by his own petard

with

If you're going to be pedantic, it's hoist, not hoisted

I guess that is what I'm driving at: not that Armstrong deserves leniency, more that there are people that deserve harsher punishments

They would have deserved (and got) harsher punishments if they had put up a defence. The reduced sentences were for pleading guilty early and turning Queen's Evidence. If you find that unsatisfactory, you have bigger fish to fry than a case of cheating at sport.

I think that's simplistic. Leiphemer made a mint out of his book about him cheating to win and make money. Hincapie, despite repeatedly supporting Lance in his affidavit to the USADA, runs a bike team and races. He was given a special bike for his last Tour, and the honour of leading out the peloton on the Champs d'Elysee, where he was chased down by Horner. According to Vaughters it was to preserve Omertà, to punish him for fingering Armstrong. Gentleman George, accomplice and friend, that even while grassing Armstrong up defended what Lance and he did.

Just think with Lance you have the pariah that absorbs the sins of everyone else and excuses them. He's the cycling anti-Jesus. So everyone gets a shrug of the shoulders and a 'well we got Lance'.

I think it's fair to say that Lance got nailed harder than the rest not only because he didn't come clean when the heat was on, unlike Leipheimer, Hincapie et al. but also because of his stature. But also because he was a bully. Maybe the fact that he didn't come clean didn't justify the disparity in the punishment he was handed out when compared to the nominal 6-month bans that the others got, but the rules do say you get credit for fessing up. And I'm certainly not going to cry any crocodile tears for him. His downfall is to an extent symbolic, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. He put himself on the pedestral, unlike Hincapie and Leipheimer. And the higher they are, the harder they fall.

For Jimmy;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/nov/12/lance-armstrong-media-offensive-doomed?CMP=twt_gu

Hand-wringing Guardianninnies, what do they know about real racing?

Yes, I know, Bill. What I meant was, when exactly did his EPO usage start? He worked with Conconi in 1992 and after, but when did that relationship start?

I would guess it must have been sometime before the 1990 Tour. The way that he rides away from LeMond to win the stage to Luz Ardiden looks highly suspect, viewed with hindsight.

I think that's simplistic. Leiphemer made a mint out of his book about him cheating to win and make money. Hincapie, despite repeatedly supporting Lance in his affidavit to the USADA, runs a bike team and races. He was given a special bike for his last Tour, and the honour of leading out the peloton on the Champs d'Elysee, where he was chased down by Horner. According to Vaughters it was to preserve Omertà, to punish him for fingering Armstrong. Gentleman George, accomplice and friend, that even while grassing Armstrong up defended what Lance and he did.

Just think with Lance you have the pariah that absorbs the sins of everyone else and excuses them. He's the cycling anti-Jesus. So everyone gets a shrug of the shoulders and a 'well we got Lance'.

Apologies for the brain fart, it was Hamilton with the book of course, not Leiphemer

I would guess it must have been sometime before the 1990 Tour. The way that he rides away from LeMond to win the stage to Luz Ardiden looks highly suspect, viewed with hindsight.

The first Paris-Nice wine was in 1989, I would suggest that season would be the most probable start point.

Except EPO wasn't commercially available in 1989. Amgen's patent was granted that year but as I understand it, the commercial launch was a year or two later.

But it was available through more nefarious channels?

There's that drug they use in combination with AICAR, GW1516, that you can get on the black market but not through pharmacies, and several riders have been pinged for it.

Depends how close the labs and sports "networks" were during that period, outside east germany and the USSR.

Depends how close the labs and sports "networks" were during that period, outside east germany and the USSR.

They worked very closely. David Jenkins was nicked in 1987 for commercial importation of steroids made in a lab in Mexico. According to his statements in Richard Moore's book "The Dirtiest Race In History", the steroids were made to order.

Very plausible that the smarter operators in the peloton got a headstart on the brawl with drugs sourced from the black market

It was definitely possible, but remember this was 25 years ago, before the internet and Amgen was a small Californian start up with no products, their EPO product, Epogen, was the first product they brought to market, and their focus then was on the lucrative US market.

But Conconi was doing transfusions with Moser in the early eighties. Couldn't he have been doing same with Indurain?

Of course. But when did Indurain start working with Conconi?

Jamie Burrows is a really nice man. A huge pity that his career was blighted by so much poor luck. Think what he could have been if he had today's British Cycling machine behind him.

He is now designing bikes in Italy.

Hippy and I have ridden with him.

^^ I don't know. Mig's Wikipedia entry states he worked with Conconi from 1987, with citations from Het Volk (1991) and Cycling Weekly (undated), but they are not online.

It seems unlikely any of his major achievements were clean, but he did have remarkable physiology.

Chris-FROOME-446-Watt-Miguel-Indurain-550-Watt